why are jat sikhs in the UK trying to portray themselves as the number one caste in punjab?

i go to college with all castes,religions and colours of people and the only time i have a problem is when i am near my own sikhs.
it seems that whenever i enter the coomon room, i get comments ands snears from the punjabi jat sikhs because of my caste. they call me chuda and cheeda, i dont even know what these things mean because i was born in the UK and my parnets are not much into india.

if you jat sikhs are the number one caste then please keep it to yourselves as i dont want to hear it shouted down my ears all the time. even the music they play is always about jat this and jat that.
jat caste is the most insensitive indian caste i think.

OK Gurdeep, let me ask you few more ques and see what you think about it. Be rational and logical. Please don't blabber about guru this and guru that (and I am saying please).

Gurdeep Singh ji ne likhya Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:50 pm nu punjabi.net te

anon sikhism wont ever die, it will flourish,
Raj Karega Khalsa,

=======> What do you mean by Raj Karega Khals? Do you mean turbaned sikhs who have taken amrit or the ones who are pure at heart irrepective of the their religion, caste and creed?

this i believe but b4 we can achieve Raaj we must improve ourselves, you and me, you must eradicate things which are moving u further from sikhi and the khalsa way of life, we must look to trhe Scriptures for guidance as appose to men,and translations must be from scholars who can translate word for word, without their own biases.

=========> This where the problem comes in Gurdeep. Scriptures don't say even a single word (I mean even a single word) about khalsa or your defintion of sikh which included 5 ks and book worship. In fact, as I cited to you before, scriptures are against foolish and unnecessary worship of objects and doesn't pay any importance to long hair or "kesh munday" situation (baldness associated with brahmins). As far as worship of bani is concerned, it doesn't have to worshipped but it has to be listened, understood and followed.

======> This you can do even by not considering a book as guru. Anyway, I don't want to comment on your calling book a guru. The issue is that you are no different from other religious sects who also pay same kind of respects to their own holy books. It's just that you have become more karamkaandi in doing that and treating it as a living thing. In this way, I feel you get too much boggled down in traditions and the rituals to ensure that it is treated as living being rather than concentrating on the message. When you concentrate on the message, you automatically give respect to the source it is coming from (i.e scriptures). You don't have to treat it as a living entity, it is unnatural.


no a man cannot sail you across the ocean only bani can do that and that is by listening and practising the GURUS WORD. Doing sangat of maha pursh is fine but they arent Guru, Guru Granth Saheb Ji is the Guru.

=======> This is where we differ. If you are let's say while respecting your viewpoint, then how did Guru Angad Dev and all gurus before Guru Arjan Dev achieved salvation, since their was no book available at that time. There was no gurtu granth sahib. In fact, so called sikh gurus (who were actually all hindus and never associated them with sikhism of today or never even imagined about it were Hindu saint mystics who followed a path mixed with tenets from hindusim, sufism and islam).

=======> So if you are true that a book is needed for guruship, Do I understand correctly, all the saints claimed by sikhs as gurus before 1604, when scriptures came into existence were phony and never achieved salvation or don't desrved to be called guru?

Sikhism by the 10 Gurus and Bhagats is an amazing religion. We have to improve to be sikh, i dont call myself a sikh, i am a practising sikh, there is a big difference. Its better to practise rather not practise all all.

=======> Now when did you start asscoating sikhism with bhagats? What is your defintion of sikhi? The problem with you gurdeep and 19 million other sikhs is that you people don't know what is sikhism. You at one hand claim 10 gurus as sikh gurus and then you claim bhagats as sikhs and then you claim ggs as a guru. How come, I ask you again respectfully, you have 10 gurus instead of six and why are bhagats not your gurus? If you say ggs calls them bhagats then that's fine but the problem is that ggs doesn't call other 4 as gurus (who have no word in it one is 8 year old) and ggs doesn't even call the six as gurus. So how do you justify your thinking?

=======> Now the next and final thing, the feelings that you have are fine but when you start commenting like "this is not possible" or "that is not possible", that's when you get into trouble. This is because you haven't got that frame of mind where you can even start feeling the almighty. God is by the way not sikh. It can be achieved through various means, only conviction is needed.

======> Please answer my questions based on logic and rational.


Sonyo pyar naal raha karo tusi - Hor Koi navi taazi gall likho?

anon sikhism wont ever die, it will flourish,
Raj Karega Khalsa, this i believe but b4 we can achieve Raaj we must improve ourselves, you and me, you must eradicate things which are moving u further from sikhi and the khalsa way of life, we must look to trhe Scriptures for guidance as appose to men,and translations must be from scholars who can translate word for word, without their own biases.
no a man cannot sail you across the ocean only bani can do that and that is by listening and practising the GURUS WORD. Doing sangat of maha pursh is fine but they arent Guru, Guru Granth Saheb Ji is the Guru.

Sikhism by the 10 Gurus and Bhagats is an amazing religion. We have to improve to be sikh, i dont call myself a sikh, i am a practising sikh, there is a big difference. Its better to practise rather not practise all all.

Gurdeep, if you stop criticizing others (like on worshipping living guru etc.), others will stop criticizing your way of religious worship (i.e khalsa). The attainment of enlightment doesn't depend on the mode of worship but on "shraddha" behind the worship.

If mode of worship had been important then gurus like Kabir Sahib, Ravidass Ji, Naamdev Ji and others would not have achieved enlightenment.

The problem that I find with you and most other low-caste sikhs of today, is that world starts with Guru Nanak and ends with Guru Gobind Singh and sikhs have captured Guru Granth Sahib like it belongs to them. Whereas, the reality of the matter is that Guru Granth Sahib is a compilation. It doesn't belong to anyone. It belongs to everybody. Everybody reveres it in their own manner. Some as living guru others as holy book containing verses of saints.

You should not force your mode of worship onmothers and think that your is the only proper way of respecting guru granth sahib. The day, you people learn to do that, your religion will florish. Otherwise, it is going to go down.

Some more blabbering from gurdeep. You wrote below that you also follow dasam granth. You follow sikh panth and ggs. Did you read dasam granth? Do you also do shiva worship (aka lingam worship), since gobind singh did it. I mean did you read dasam granth at all. Since, you guys claim to be khalsa or sikhs with 5ks, your holy book should be dasam granth rather than ggs.

You and your kumhaar and chamar brothers run to living gurus when reading book like parrots doesn't do anything for them. They realize that for salvation and peace of mind, a living guru is required. It is better to have a kind ear listening to your problems rather than a book. Heck even your jathedars do it, your politicians do it, your people do it. Everybody in so-called sikh panth does it. Just Gurdeep doesn't do it. Either the whole world is crazy or gurdeep is crazy.

He believes that his gurus were never in living form. He believes that it is better to worship an inanimate object because he doesn't believe in living things. He believes that his sikh gurus were born dead (never alive). Shame on you gurdeep. You have let down your gurus who believed in "passage of jyot niranjan from guru to chelas". Now tell me how can a book pass a jyot to the reader. You need a living guru to do that. Moreoever, gurdeep there were people like you at the time of nanak who called him "kuraiya" or the follower of wrong path. Those people were no different from people like yourself who comment on other people religious convictions.

If you worship book then why do you worship gobind singh and 3 opther gurus who don't have a word in it? Be consistent my friend. People who cast stones at the religious feelings of others should be prepared to defend theirs.

And gurdeep, please don't bring discussion about mothers into it. It is not meaningful for the current discussion. I know you do that because you don't have anything meaningful to say and you behave exactly like other hardline sikhs when they get cornered i.e they start muddling the words of reason.


Gurdeep writes

Gurdeep Singh. ji ne likhya Monday, September 23, 2002 - 02:41 pm nu punjabi.net te

oh so you are willing to learn, oh thats good. No its people who go to so called living Gurus who suffer and they take along with them those people who are blinded away from the teachings of Guru Granth Saheb Ji.

I myself believe in the Guru Granth Saheb Ji, the Dasam Granth and the Sikh Panth.

pcj:when your frustated you insult peoples mothers, whats more hurtful. me calling your mom a slut or me calling you jats dogjatbootpolish crackheads?

Sonyo pyar naal raha karo tusi - Hor Koi navi taazi gall likho?

oh so you are willing to learn, oh thats good. No its people who go to so called living Gurus who suffer and they take along with them those people who are blinded away from the teachings of Guru Granth Saheb Ji.

I myself believe in the Guru Granth Saheb Ji, the Dasam Granth and the Sikh Panth.

pcj:when your frustated you insult peoples mothers, whats more hurtful. me calling your mom a slut or me calling you jats dogjatbootpolish crackheads?

Poor Deepa is getting frustrated again.

What is a sikh, gurdeep? How come I am anti sikh? I don't hate people who endeavour to learn.

How come I am anti bhagat? Am I not anti guru? Why didn't you accuse me of that? Are bhagats and guru different? Were your gurus not bhagats?

And I don't want to mingle with you either. Gurdeep as I said, I understand you better than you understand yourself. I think your brain is screwed by today's brand of sikhi which doesn't respect anybody other than herding all the morons like you towards a book while disrespecting everybody else. Today's sikhi is islam with sharia, todays sikhi is hinduism with karamkaand and todays sikhi is catholics before martin luther king. And in such a sikhi, you have no luck. Go to some living guru who your heart guides to and have some salvation while respecting ggs.

Do you know what I mean?

"Ilam kitaban parh parh thakke"
"Na rab tirath te na rub amritsar, te na rub makke"

Gurdeep Singh ji ne likhya Friday, September 20, 2002 - 02:18 pm nu punjabi.net te

who are you , your a dog jat.fulstop, i refuse to mingle with a anti sikh like you, anti Guru Granth Saheb, anti Bhagats, and anti sense typical characteristics of a low caste shudar jatt!!brrruahh.

Whats the point with tuttiboot polish bootjats.

who are you , your a dog jat.fulstop, i refuse to mingle with a anti sikh like you, anti Guru Granth Saheb, anti Bhagats, and anti sense typical characteristics of a low caste shudar jatt!!brrruahh.

Whats the point with tuttiboot polish bootjats.

No anonymous, I am not Nirankari, Radhasoami or Namdhari.

I have no respect for Nirankaris as you they disrespected Guru Granth Sahib, which includes bani of some of the greatest people on this earth.

I don’t know much about Namdharis.

I only know a little bit about Radhasoamis because I tried to find out about them after reading some anti-Radhsoami stuff here on this net from Sikhs.

I only believe that there is only one God. He doesn’t care whether you categorize yourself as a Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, American, California, Indian, Punjabi, or Jatt and nobody becomes racist just by a simple classification as I have already repeated this a number of times.

Deepe, I classify myself as Jatt for the same reason that you classify yourself as a Sikh. We are either both wrong or both right.

Gurdeep and PCJ my responses follow with %%%%

PCJ, I am not baiting anyboy. I am a jat and I know the thinking process of gurdeep more than he knows about his hands and feet. Below are my responses.

PCJ, you are most probably a Nirankari, Radhasoami or Namdhari. Indcidently Naamdharis are most casteist of the sikh groups.

Gurdeep Singh ji ne likhya Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 03:31 pm nu punjabi.net te


Caste should not be in sikhism according to scriptures at-least. But sikhism is full of shiit of casteism.

yes i agree anon, this caste system is rife in our lives but did u know the only way we as sikhs regardless of what caste we come from, can eradicate this caste, just as rife and violently it has spread it can also be reduced, cos it is man made, our Gurus didnt practise the caste even though you may think that cos most of them didnt marry out of the khatri caste but Guru Amar Das Ji did marry out just to prove that point, Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed before the Panj Pyareh and asked for their permission to become a Singh, a Khalsa.

%%%%% I am sure, Kumhaar Ji, anything can be done. Your ancestors haven't been able to do it for last 300 years and your gurus weren't able to do it in their life lifetime. You haven't been able to do it. Keep praying to waheguru. It will only go away, when we jatts want it and we don't want it to go away. Gurur Gobind singh didn't bow before panj pyares or somebody else because he wanted to do it. He did it because he had to do it. he didn't had any other choice. The only people whop were willing to help him were chamars, tarkhaans and other low-caste morons like you. Who did Guru Amardas marry? I am not sure who are you talking about?

%%%% Even our gurus didn't practice castesim but they weren't vehemently opposed to it. Like today, even at that time, any religious philosophy which had to be propagated, was propagated at the back of low-castes. Who do you think comprise most of the break away groups of sikhs and hindus today; low-castes like you off course. Gurus didn't practice castesim but they weren't opposed to it and they didn't set any grand examples either.

%%%%% Today, if you fools think about taking over us, we would never let that happen. Since your ancestors served a khatri/jat, you have to keep serving us. That is your duty. Stay wherever you are.

The intentions of the Gurus regarding caste wasnt evil at all, it was a noble thing to make those who were walked over and disregarded, as equals and gave them power to fight for their belief in equality and humanity and God.

Consider what you are saying anon, Guru Nanak went away for a while in the river, people thought he passed away why did he reappear with the message there is no hindu and no musalmaan, everyone is equal in the eyes of God, that was his first sermon.
This is why the writings and philosophies of Bhagats was added in our Holy Guru Granth Saheb Ji,

%%%%%% He didn't go into any river or anything. 600 years are a lot to twist the facts. This river nonsense is propagated by historians who wanted to give an aura of mysticism to guru nanak. The way guru nanak got enlightened is the same way anybody else did i.e through a guru. Now who was his guru, I will tell you in time to come.

Why do u refer to Gurus as WE!, u aint that big a sikh that u can start classing yourself as Guru/sikh or anything. You are a complete ignorant..

%%%%%%% You fools worship 4 gurus who don't appear in ggs. Why ???? Yeah, you can worship me. May be you would get something out of it. Didn't guru gobind singh say, aape guru chela. I am your guru and also a chela of my guru. So I won't mind if you want to call me your guru.

3. low castes were till recently were seated separately from high caste sikhs in gurudwaras.

point 3 is a complete lie, in maybe your eyes it might have been cos you think yourself as a higher status than sum1 else, in my opinion you aint even qualified for the dust under the feet.

%%%%%% Read some history man. Every other day, there is screwing up of low-caste sikhs in punjab. You guys deserve that because you haven'ty learned in last 600 years.

4. we jatts rule most of the gurudwaras and keep low caste sikhs to fill our money boxes but don't allow them to rule us.

jats think they rule most of the Gurdwaras but they are sadly mistaken, where u liv, maybe cos you also have Gurdwaras for doctors, lawyers, etc,again seperate and against the principles of sikhi. you cant go round sayong this and that about sikhism when it is your scummy jats who try to run the religion falsely and through your manmat, and not through Gurmat.
Face it if today there are sellouts, backstabbers, and underclass of the sikh community it is definately the jat tribe, and this is why sikhism is a mess, cos you jat boots have created barriers and put others down and made your stupid self look higher than even the teachings of our Gurus.

%%%%% You can cry whatever you want. We still rule and you can't do anything about it. Too bad. You can only sit in your hosues and complain about it or beat up your wives and kids in frustration in lieu of the shiit we give you at gurudwaras but you can't do anything about it.

5. low castes are good for fighting and dying for high castes that's why our last guru enlisted lot of them bacuse nobody else was willing to help them.

No the Gurus gave equal status to everyone and taught them to believe in God and not in superflous rituals like caste which was against humanity itself. You again are speaking thru ur •••• and your manmat,own perceptions and preferences. This again is anti sikh

6. low castes in sikhs think of ravidass and kabir as their guru and they are trying to force it down the throat of high caste sikhs to call them as gurus. We would never let that happen.

Shut up you jat ••••••• . see you dont realise that you have wasted your time writing such crap its cracking me up inside. There is only the Ten Gurus and Bhagats and the Guru Granth Saheb Ji is our eternal Guru, everlasting and wonderful, These greats became Bhagats cos they did BHagti and spend their lives doing wadhayi of God, our Gurus did alot more, they sacrificed so much, they proved that just to believe in something is not enough, you have to be prepared to fight for what you believe, Gurus showed that and people like you who are nothing but air heads base evrything around the caste system and this is why im sayiong you are nothing, absolutely nothing.

%%%% What did gurus did? didn't they do bhakti? Did they do some mumbo-jumbo? We don't call ravidass and kabir guru because we don't want to keep on making gurus. We already have too many gurus, and their sons to take care off. We have decided to worship book now.

7. only book is our guru. we worship guru granth sahib. We also worship 4 other gurus as sikhs who don't even have a single word of teaching in our holy book. We worship them because they were one of us (high castes) and because they were sons of our main gurus.

A question why do you worship the Guru gRanth Saheb Ji which contains the words of " Lower Castes" as you put it.??? Our one eternal Guru is the Guru Granth Saheb JI, we do not believe in worshipping men, we are ordained to follow the Scriptures in the Guru GRanth Saheb Ji and nothing else. If this is hard for you to digest then rot!.

%%%%%% We worship selectively. We leave ravidass and kabir as merely bhagats of guru nanak and guru gobind singh. Moreover, they are not high castes and we can't let a low-caste become a guru. All the high castes would start leaving the sikhism if we let gurus come after another and make these people gurus. We now call a book a gurus because we can keep collecting money from everybody and even from kumhaars like you for the sake of a book. But we still would not give the same respect to your low-caste bhagats as we give respect to our 10 gurus. There can be no other guru in the world after 10 gurus. 10 gurus are the rule, no gurus after 10 gurus. world stopped after 10th guru. Gurus stopped takling birth after 10th guru because a book became a guru.

8. There is no caste in sikhism because our scripture says that but we can't let these low castes overrun our khalsa and pure religion. We can't hand over our golden temple to tanners and sweepers and thats what our greate sikh leaders of the past have quoted.

HaHA, in sikhism the only who get Gurus Bakshish are those who conquer their ego which of the 5 evils is the baadshah and merge one with God and practise according to our way of life, it controlles your every thought, now i know a manmat like you will base everything on one issue(caste), it is therfore pointless talking to a piece of mud like u anyway. Actually it wud be nice to meet you in person and then we can have it out properly.

%%%%%% You can't stand my logic, how would you bear a meeting with jatt.

9. We don't have caste in sikhism but we don't let our sisters marry these low caste sikhs on quota because they give poor genes to our noble jatt blood.

Noble jat background you say, well let me tell u go to the punjab and see what the bhaiyas are doing to your jattiya and then open that •••••• gob of yours. they are planting all kinds!!!!!.
see these jats have nerve, check out jattiyas in your villages then talk to me about jat nobleness what a damn joke you have become.hahahahaha!!

As for sikhism as a faith, there is no way a caste system in sikhism, remember man made caste, God made everyone equal..if people still believe in caste then they aint sikhs, jats you can remain even though it gives you a low status to us human beings.

10. We don't want to allow these low castes because they want to make a cobbler, Ravidass as guru even though our scriptures calls him a bhagat.
Bhagat Ravidass Ji is reverred in our Guru Granth Saheb Ji, so do remember when u bow towards the Guru you bow in equal respect a chamaar, a naie etc.

you think being jat gives you prestige, hahahahahahaha, what even when the bhaiyaas are ploughing away at what not,m the jattiyas love it, and what are you pussies doing about it, NOTHING!!just blurting bbbrrrruuuuaaaa!!!!!

your just mince meat, il prove it to u.name and address please..


%%%%% Kumhaar, that's what you are good for. Stay wherever you are and keep mincing yourselves. As I said, you people squirm in the mud of your own thoughts and hurt yourself. If you had guts then Ravidass and Kabir and others would have gotten the place in history, they deserved.

%%%%Does it really matter, who am I? Read the message.

i realise he was being sarcastic and manipulating everything he was saying to make fun you ••••• bUT regardless of whether he is a jat or not you(anon) still insulted sikh principles and so i tried to defended my sikhi.

Anyway whatever religion cliam to be you should follow it with your heart, and not with your ego.

Why wud u call yourself a jat when Gurus said there is no such thing, everyone is equal.

Ha ha ha…Poor Deepu, don’t you ever use your head? How come you didn’t realize that Anonymous on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 09:05 pm was being sarcastic and is not even a Jatt?

One good point though. You mentioned that there was no Hindu or Muslims. They were all the same. Then don’t think he would have said the same thing about Sikhs? Then why do you call yourself a Sikh when Guru Nanak said there is no such thing?

Caste should not be in sikhism according to scriptures at-least. But sikhism is full of shiit of casteism.

yes i agree anon, this caste system is rife in our lives but did u know the only way we as sikhs regardless of what caste we come from, can eradicate this caste, just as rife and violently it has spread it can also be reduced, cos it is man made, our Gurus didnt practise the caste even though you may think that cos most of them didnt marry out of the khatri caste but Guru Amar Das Ji did marry out just to prove that point, Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed before the Panj Pyareh and asked for their permission to become a Singh, a Khalsa.

The intentions of the Gurus regarding caste wasnt evil at all, it was a noble thing to make those who were walked over and disregarded, as equals and gave them power to fight for their belief in equality and humanity and God.

Consider what you are saying anon, Guru Nanak went away for a while in the river, people thought he passed away why did he reappear with the message there is no hindu and no musalmaan, everyone is equal in the eyes of God, that was his first sermon.
This is why the writings and philosophies of Bhagats was added in our Holy Guru Granth Saheb Ji,

Why do u refer to Gurus as WE!, u aint that big a sikh that u can start classing yourself as Guru/sikh or anything. You are a complete ignorant..

3. low castes were till recently were seated separately from high caste sikhs in gurudwaras.

point 3 is a complete lie, in maybe your eyes it might have been cos you think yourself as a higher status than sum1 else, in my opinion you aint even qualified for the dust under the feet.

4. we jatts rule most of the gurudwaras and keep low caste sikhs to fill our money boxes but don't allow them to rule us.

jats think they rule most of the Gurdwaras but they are sadly mistaken, where u liv, maybe cos you also have Gurdwaras for doctors, lawyers, etc,again seperate and against the principles of sikhi. you cant go round sayong this and that about sikhism when it is your scummy jats who try to run the religion falsely and through your manmat, and not through Gurmat.
Face it if today there are sellouts, backstabbers, and underclass of the sikh community it is definately the jat tribe, and this is why sikhism is a mess, cos you jat boots have created barriers and put others down and made your stupid self look higher than even the teachings of our Gurus.

5. low castes are good for fighting and dying for high castes that's why our last guru enlisted lot of them bacuse nobody else was willing to help them.

No the Gurus gave equal status to everyone and taught them to believe in God and not in superflous rituals like caste which was against humanity itself. You again are speaking thru ur •••• and your manmat,own perceptions and preferences. This again is anti sikh

6. low castes in sikhs think of ravidass and kabir as their guru and they are trying to force it down the throat of high caste sikhs to call them as gurus. We would never let that happen.

Shut up you jat ••••••• . see you dont realise that you have wasted your time writing such crap its cracking me up inside. There is only the Ten Gurus and Bhagats and the Guru Granth Saheb Ji is our eternal Guru, everlasting and wonderful, These greats became Bhagats cos they did BHagti and spend their lives doing wadhayi of God, our Gurus did alot more, they sacrificed so much, they proved that just to believe in something is not enough, you have to be prepared to fight for what you believe, Gurus showed that and people like you who are nothing but air heads base evrything around the caste system and this is why im sayiong you are nothing, absolutely nothing.

7. only book is our guru. we worship guru granth sahib. We also worship 4 other gurus as sikhs who don't even have a single word of teaching in our holy book. We worship them because they were one of us (high castes) and because they were sons of our main gurus.

A question why do you worship the Guru gRanth Saheb Ji which contains the words of " Lower Castes" as you put it.??? Our one eternal Guru is the Guru Granth Saheb JI, we do not believe in worshipping men, we are ordained to follow the Scriptures in the Guru GRanth Saheb Ji and nothing else. If this is hard for you to digest then rot!.

8. There is no caste in sikhism because our scripture says that but we can't let these low castes overrun our khalsa and pure religion. We can't hand over our golden temple to tanners and sweepers and thats what our greate sikh leaders of the past have quoted.

HaHA, in sikhism the only who get Gurus Bakshish are those who conquer their ego which of the 5 evils is the baadshah and merge one with God and practise according to our way of life, it controlles your every thought, now i know a manmat like you will base everything on one issue(caste), it is therfore pointless talking to a piece of mud like u anyway. Actually it wud be nice to meet you in person and then we can have it out properly.

9. We don't have caste in sikhism but we don't let our sisters marry these low caste sikhs on quota because they give poor genes to our noble jatt blood.

Noble jat background you say, well let me tell u go to the punjab and see what the bhaiyas are doing to your jattiya and then open that •••••• gob of yours. they are planting all kinds!!!!!.
see these jats have nerve, check out jattiyas in your villages then talk to me about jat nobleness what a damn joke you have become.hahahahaha!!

As for sikhism as a faith, there is no way a caste system in sikhism, remember man made caste, God made everyone equal..if people still believe in caste then they aint sikhs, jats you can remain even though it gives you a low status to us human beings.

10. We don't want to allow these low castes because they want to make a cobbler, Ravidass as guru even though our scriptures calls him a bhagat.
Bhagat Ravidass Ji is reverred in our Guru Granth Saheb Ji, so do remember when u bow towards the Guru you bow in equal respect a chamaar, a naie etc.

you think being jat gives you prestige, hahahahahahaha, what even when the bhaiyaas are ploughing away at what not,m the jattiyas love it, and what are you pussies doing about it, NOTHING!!just blurting bbbrrrruuuuaaaa!!!!!

your just mince meat, il prove it to u.name and address please..

Neha Ji:

Caste should not be in sikhism according to scriptures at-least. But sikhism is full of shiit of casteism.

1. Our gurus didn't marry out of caste so you can imagine their intentions, although they spoke against caste system

2. We didn't make naamdev, kabir and ravidas sikh gurus because they were of a lower caste. although kabir and ravidass were gurus of guru nanak, our first guru.

3. low castes were till recently were seated separately from high caste sikhs in gurudwaras.

4. we jatts rule most of the gurudwaras and keep low caste sikhs to fill our money boxes but don't allow them to rule us.

5. low castes are good for fighting and dying for high castes that's why our last guru enlisted lot of them bacuse nobody else was willing to help them.

6. low castes in sikhs think of ravidass and kabir as their guru and they are trying to force it down the throat of high caste sikhs to call them as gurus. We would never let that happen.

7. only book is our guru. we worship guru granth sahib. We also worship 4 other gurus as sikhs who don't even have a single word of teaching in our holy book. We worship them because they were one of us (high castes) and because they were sons of our main gurus.

8. There is no caste in sikhism because our scripture says that but we can't let these low castes overrun our khalsa and pure religion. We can't hand over our golden temple to tanners and sweepers and thats what our greate sikh leaders of the past have quoted.

9. We don't have caste in sikhism but we don't let our sisters marry these low caste sikhs on quota because they give poor genes to our noble jatt blood.

10. We don't want to allow these low castes because they want to make a cobbler, Ravidass as guru even though our scriptures calls him a bhagat.

Yes, sister Neha, we don't have castesim in sikhsim but we jatts do believe that violating the prestige of low castes is acceptable to us.
Yes, we can worship 8 years old as guru but not a cobbler, weaver or barber.

Neha Ji u are absolutely right, in sikhism as a religion there is no caste and shouldnt be a caste distinction in our minds if we call ourselves sikhs BUT sadly this caste bullshit is rife. Strive to be good sikhs and practise its unique way of life!.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this whole cast thing isn't it against our sikh religion. Aren't all sikh's equal!

I have no idea as to why people equate Jats with sacas, there isnt much facts which support these hypothesis. Surely I doubt it if any one denies the fact that they may have some saka blood due to intermingling. But Jats didnot originate from where the sakas originated. It would be more correct to say that the saka families who entered punjab got mixed and took up agriculture produced the the farming community called Jats.

well it could be that scythians who got mixed with indians produced the gypsies...

Hopefully, the following will answer the Gypsy origins question once and for all..The premium Probert encyclopaedia, especially designed by Oxford scholars for Western journalists and Western researchers, confirms that Jats are Gypsies.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM
ref.JAT

Now ,we could argue till the cows come home,but the fact remains that at the end of the day,those who disagree will have to convince the Oxford scholars who wrote the Probert Encyclopaedia that they are wrong about the Jat-Gypsy origins!

Good Luck and Best Wishes.

i am from punjab.the real punjab which most of you "firanghi" racists dont know about.
it seems that the "racist" bullshit that u fools get from "angrez" overthere has hit all of u hard , including sikhs,jatts,hindus alike.
seems u ve forgotten ur forefathers.
ok beauty is a universally desired feature.
but "being" white or close enough to be being" white"?what nonsense is thsi?
do u think that JEWS ARE IN ANY WAY LESS "WHITE" THAN THE EUROPEANS.as far as iam concerned ,they are one of the most "beautifull" people in the world.they have second highest natioanl iq level in the world.
THEN WHY IF THEY WERE PERSECUTED RUTHELESSLY BY NAZIS, do u expect that so called "aryan" hindus,(brahmins?" will be cosidered "whites"?
hindus dont share their religion.
on an average any south asian is of "wheatish" complexion.as far as this nonsense about jatts being more angrez?thats a complete nonsense again.
MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH DID HAVE HIS VICES , YES,AS WAS A COMMONPLACE THING WITH MAHARAJAS OF THOSE TIMES; BUT THE EMPIRE HE BUILT FROM KANDHAR AND KABUL, TO KASHMIR AND LADAKH(IT WOULDNT BE IN INDIAN TERRITORY IF IT HADNT BEEN FOR MAHARAJA'S ANNEXATION)TO WHAT IS KNOWN AS WEST PUNJAB ETC)
his completely secular views,HOW CAN ANY SELF RESPECTING INDIAN EVER FORGET THAT?
it was unlucky for us that we got ranjeet singh too late in history, because by that time british had become too powerfull to be stopped.
"NOTE" Ur "note" stinks of "inferiority"feeling, a desire to please ur "idealised" many a distinguished english gentlemen.
would u like to be born as "angrez" like that hypocrite "sir" nai'paul'????

"A rose by any other name(or dare I suggest 'black color') is still a rose"

It is true that a picture speaks a thousand words.Below are 20 pictures to witness the physical characteristics of the founder of jatland.com and other so-called 'hindu Jats'.....

http://ndahiya.tripod.com/
(click on 'pictures')

Is this how Sakas look like?

I wish you all lots of luck,you will need it!

"A rose by any other name(or dare I suggest 'black color') is still a rose"

It is true that a picture speaks a thousand words.Below are 20 pictures to witness the physical characteristics of the founder of jatland.com and other so-called 'hindu Jats'.....

http://ndahiya.tripod.com/
(click on 'pictures')

Is this how Sakas look like?

I wish you all lots of luck,you will need it!

"A rose by any other name(or dare I suggest 'dark color')is still a rose"

A Jat

http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/staff/dhillon/

"A rose by any other name(or dare I say size) is still a rose."

http://intranet.cranford.hounslow.sch.uk/governors/dhillon2.html

A picture of Ranjit Singh

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/ranjit.html

Enjoy.

Is this how Scythians look like?

http://www.angelfire.com/in/tranter/sah_pa.html

http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/staff/dhillon/

http://www.geocities.com/bhangra-mit/photo-gallery

http://www.jasvirdhillon.com/

http://intranet.cranford.hounslow.sch.uk/governors/dhillon2.html

Good Luck,Jat friends!

5th of Jan 2002.

Mushraf strode around the podium to face the Indian Prime Minister,sitting among a row of government leaders,and held out his hand to loud applause.With a look of amusement,Bajpayee half rose to his feet and shook Mushraf's hand.

But the Indian leader was not fooled by this empty handshake.

He told the summit leaders,"I have shaken his hand in your presence". "Now president Mushraf must follow this gesture by not permitting any activity in Pakistan territory which enables terrorists to perpetuate mindless violence in India."

The Indian Foreign Ministry later called Mushraf's handshake "grandstanding" and "theatrics for T.V."

"Thus it is said that one who knows the enemy and knows himself will not be endangered in a hundred engagements.One who does not know the enemy but knows himself will sometimes be victorious,sometimes meet with defeat.One who knows neither the enemy nor himself will invariably be defeated in every engagement."

Sun Tzu....

Below is a list of about 40 brave Indian heroes who offered the supreme sacrifice for their great nation with refrence to Kargil situation..These brave soldiers showed great courage,determination,gumption and extraordinary valour in battle, before they were killed in the line of duty.

As expected and as desired,,they are mainly Hindus.If you see any Jat in the list,let me know;because I could not find even one in the list :
No offence....

http://www.jammu-Kashmir-facts.com/award1.htm

Sept. 11 has created an atmosphere of total intolerance with regard to terrorist activities.The Indian govt. knows this full well,hence the current crisis with Pakistan.It also knows that whatever it does can be justified in the eyes of the international community.It therefore possesses the moral victory already.

Just as the Isralies did to Arafat recently,India may do to Paskistan soon.India will corner the Pakistanis and extract as many concessions from them as possible,especially on the Kashmiri front.Already Pakistan has caved in ,arresting the leader of the Laksher-e-Tiba terrorist organization.India will not be satisfied with this.It will demand and probably receieve more consessions from Pakistan in the near future before this crisis defuses.Otherwise it may attack.When a regional super-power ammases its border with troops,it is not bluffing.If required,there will be an incursion into Pakistan to 'teach it a lession'..

The threat of the use of military force sometimes is enough to attain all of a nation's desired objectives,at other times it is not.Actual force may yet be applied against Pakistan to impose India's hegemony in the region,eradicate or downgrade the Pakistani funded terrorist camps in Kashmir and gain a stronger Indian foothold in Kashmir....The present crisis boils down to the power play in Kashmir.

Gen. Mushraf of Pakistan is not following the principles of proper warfare.He he constantly on T.V., exposing himself as irresolute,transparent and doubtful.Also,his verbose threats to retaliate 'firmly' against Indian 'agression' against Pakistan,ironically is having the reverse effect,making him sound defensive.In contrast,we have not heard a word from any Indian General so far:

"It is essential for a general to be tranquil and obscure,upright and self-disciplined,and able to stupify the eyes and ears of the officers and troops,keeping them ignorant.He alerts his management of affairs and changes his strategies to keep other people from recognizing them.He shifts his position and traverses indirect routes to keep other people from being able to anticipate him." Sun Tzu.

Some simple people claim that India and Pakistan will never go to war because both Countries possess nuclear weapons and a war between the two will quickly spiral out of control and turn into a nuclear holocaust.This is simplistic reasoning and false.

This is what Sun Tzu says with regard to calculated warfare and limited military engagements:

"After estimating the advantages in accord with what
the Generals know,put into effect with strategic power(Shih) supplemented by field tactics that respond to external factors.As for strategic power,it is controlling the tactical imbalance of power(Chuan)in accord with the gains to be realised."

In 1982 China invaded Vietnam in a limited engagement to "teach Vietnam a lesson" because Vietnam provoked China over a border issue.The limited war between the two Nations lasted a few weeks;the Chinese pushed into Vietnamese territory(60-70km) and withdrew soon after..The mission was not to conquer territory but to punish the lesser power.

In the same way,America attacked Afghanistan two months ago with a very clear mission,to kick out the Taliban and destroy the Al Queda.America will soon withdraw from Afghanistan once the new government of Afghanistan is in place efficiently.In this engagement, America excelled in the attack form and prevailed over the Taliban quickly.The Taliban either surrendered,changed alliances or deserted.The victory was quick and painless.

This is what Sun Tzu says:

"Those who excell at defense(Taliban) bury themselves away below the lowest depts of Earth.(Al Queda in Caves etc.)Those who excel at offence(America)move from above the greatest heights in Heaven.(Superior firepower,in this case air power.)Thus they are able to preserve themselves and attain complete victory."

Further,
"Perceiving a victory that does not surpass what the masses could know is not the pinnacle of excellence.Wrestling victories for which all under Heaven proclaim your excellence is not the pinnacle of excellence."

Sun Tzu advised us thus in his 'Art of War';

"If an opposing but weaker force(Pakistan) is chanting the banter of War,provoking its enemy(helping terrorists etc.), and reinforcing its common border with a stronger enemy(India),then the 'Chi'(incentive,energy,moral high ground) lies with the stronger Army(India)."......"The 'Tao'(set principles of nature,equilibrium) of war in this instance stipulates that the stronger force(India) may determine the outcome of War or Peace at will.The superior force(India) can either attack the weaker force(Pakistan) by claiming undue provocation,or simply ignore the weaker enemy and thus diffuse tensions.The superior force(India) will not vanquish the moral high ground or "loose face" either way."

Peace or War in South Asia now depends solely on what India desides to do.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM
ref# JAT

The Probert Encyclopaedia is designed specifically for Western researchers and journalists, in conjunction with Oxford University,England.
For instance,if a journalist were to write an article on Jats,one of his first steps to gain a deeper understanding of the Jat people would be to consult the Probert Encyclopaedia.

This is what the Probert Encyclopaedia ,2001 ed.,says about Jats and their connection to Roma:

"The Jat are an ethnic group living in Pakistan and North India,and numbering 11 million;they are the largest group in North India.The Jat are predominantly farmers.They speak Punjabi,a language belonging to the Indian branch of the Indo-European family.They are thought to be related to the Romany people."

Understand that Encyclopaedias' only offer information to the public which is fairly conclusive and most significant.Notice that Probert here mentions the Jat connection to the Roma but does not dwell upon any supposed generic 'Scythian' connection of Jats,for obvious reasons indeed!

Best Wishes!

Hi nonJat Guys, why not tell the same to Angus Frasier! These are exact quotations, pick up the book from Borders or Barnes and Nobles. Good luck Gypsies!:

“Then again, some Gypsies who in modern times have themselves studied the problem of origins have been attracted by alternative hypothesis which would make their ancestors khsatriyas – warriors who formed the second rank among the four castes of Hindu society – rather than a motley crew of minstrels and low-caste vagrants; and they have received support from Indian writers [15] in supposing that the Gypsies may descend from Jat and Rajput warriors…Such theories are not infrequently seasoned with a liberal measure of subjectiveness. The refinement which would superimpose on a wave of Jats in the eighth century a second layer of warriors in the twelfth century, after the battle of Tarain in 1192 when the Rajputs were defeated by the Turko-Afghan Ghaznavids, will hardly endear itself to the more skeptical reader.”

15. Notably W. R. Rishi…

In regards to linguistic analysis the order of Indian languages that are closest to Romany are as follow, “Hindi goes into the lead, with Kotgarhi next in line, while Multani is seen to lag much further behind, at about the same level as Panjabi.” Sindhi was the last on the list.

“Whether the original Gypsies were identical with the Jats of India (a people strongly represented in the Punjab) is a matter which has been debated for a hundred years or more and, as already pointed out (p.26), the Jat hypothesis still finds adherents.”

“The difficulty is that the name Zott was in the end applied fairly indiscriminately to anyone originating in the valley of the Indus. These records tell us what was happening to segments of population of Indian origin, particularly the Jats. Whether they tell us anything of the original Gypsy ancestors is highly dubious. The fact that the Arabs gave the name Zott to Gypsies probably means no more than that they transferred to them since they came from India, the name of the Indian people with which they had most frequently come into contact, just as the role of the Franks or French in European history led to “Firanja” from the Latin Francia, coming to mean “Europe” in modern Arabic.”

“The linguistic evidence back in India lends little support to the Jat hypothesis. Another objection of some weight is the fact that a history of migrations concentrated in the south of Persia does not really match the dispersion routes which can be inferred from the way Romani developed in Persian territory.”

Cited:

Frasier, Angus, The Gypsies, Blackwell Publishers Ltd., Oxford, UK, 2000, first published 1992. pp.- 27-28, 31, 35-37

In the past,Jats have selectively and proudly quoted from Col.Sleeman about his description of the Jat physical characteristics.This is what Col. Sleeman says of the Jat physical and ethnological characteristics in totality:

"The mediaeval Gypsies show family resemblances,physical and moral,ethnological and linguistic,with the modern Jats,a highly important race,which extends from the mouth of the Indus....."
ref; http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_1.doc

Indeed,if you observe the Sikh Jat physical characteristics today,especially when the former has removed his beard and turban,you will immediately notice a striking similarity to the Roma of Europe.For instance,the Jat Bobby Deol,could easily pass for a young and modern Rom form Europe;with his dark skin,Gypsy like impetuousness,black curly hair and almond round eyes .

Sunny,regarding your last post,
You say that Jats are Khsatriyas!Sure!!Only in your wildest dreams little Shudra!!Jats are not even considered proper Hindus and are not even allowed to touch the Hindu Veda till this day!
Ha! Ha! Ha!

Sunny,
Friend,I am not interested at all if you are convinced or not.I think we both know that you will not be convined even if the truth resolutely stared you in the face.Rather,my aim is to only expose your lies,fabrications and misinformation. Also,it is my aim to write truthfully about history and modern day historical discoveries without bias.

Best Regards!

Hi nonJat Guys, I am not convinced!!!

“Then again, some Gypsies who in modern times have themselves studied the problem of origins have been attracted by alternative hypothesis which would make their ancestors khsatriyas – warriors who formed the second rank among the four castes of Hindu society – rather than a motley crew of minstrels and low-caste vagrants; and they have received support from Indian writers [15] in supposing that the Gypsies may descend from Jat and Rajput warriors…Such theories are not infrequently seasoned with a liberal measure of subjectiveness. The refinement which would superimpose on a wave of Jats in the eighth century a second layer of warriors in the twelfth century, after the battle of Tarain in 1192 when the Rajputs were defeated by the Turko-Afghan Ghaznavids, will hardly endear itself to the more skeptical reader.”

15. Notably W. R. Rishi…

In regards to linguistic analysis the order of Indian languages that are closest to Romany are as follow, “Hindi goes into the lead, with Kotgarhi next in line, while Multani is seen to lag much further behind, at about the same level as Panjabi.” Sindhi was the last on the list.

“Whether the original Gypsies were identical with the Jats of India (a people strongly represented in the Punjab) is a matter which has been debated for a hundred years or more and, as already pointed out (p.26), the Jat hypothesis still finds adherents.”

“The difficulty is that the name Zott was in the end applied fairly indiscriminately to anyone originating in the valley of the Indus. These records tell us what was happening to segments of population of Indian origin, particularly the Jats. Whether they tell us anything of the original Gypsy ancestors is highly dubious. The fact that the Arabs gave the name Zott to Gypsies probably means no more than that they transferred to them since they came from India, the name of the Indian people with which they had most frequently come into contact, just as the role of the Franks or French in European history led to “Firanja” from the Latin Francia, coming to mean “Europe” in modern Arabic.”

“The linguistic evidence back in India lends little support to the Jat hypothesis. Another objection of some weight is the fact that a history of migrations concentrated in the south of Persia does not really match the dispersion routes which can be inferred from the way Romani developed in Persian territory.”

Cited:

Frasier, Angus, The Gypsies, Blackwell Publishers Ltd., Oxford, UK, 2000, first published 1992. pp.- 27-28, 31, 35-37

re.. Sunny,Dec. 27,2001,6.32pm.

Sunny,I don't buy into your conspiracy theories.Any remotely educated person knows that it was the Britishers who first noticed profound similarities between the Roma of Europe and Jats, about three hundred years ago; this circumstance finally led to the breakthrough of a connection between the Jats and Roma of Europe.For instance, Col.Sleeman,Gen. Walter Scott,Capt Burton,Col.Dunsterville,A.H. Bingley and many others were the first to suggest a relation between Jats and Gypsies.Prior to the arrival of the British in India,Gypsies were thought to be Jews or Egyptians, so forth.Also,most present day experts in Gypsy origins are Western educated.

Indeed Sunny,you seem to suggest that Gypsies were a "motley crew of low caste minstrels and low-caste vagrants." Indian history has amply confirmed for us that Jats indeed were and are a "low-caste" Shudra people, and many Jats even today are vagrants or 'nomadic'.There are enough evidences of this. .(eg. Col.Sleeman,Ibbetson,A.H. Rose,Bingley,etc. etc.)Nomadic Jats in Gujerat even today are vagrants: ref.
http://www.changemakers.net/journal/01october/ray.cfm


Any doubts as to the racial composition of Gypsies was put to rest finally in 1987 when Dr. Kochanowski conducted his ground breaking blood test confirming Gypsy origins in tandem with Rajputs and Punjabis.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010413/cth1.htm

"Dr. Vania de Gila Kochanowski,the renouned Scholar from France...Dr. Vania was able to establish a direct connection between Indian Rajputs and Punjabis and Romas.He had gone around the Country,especially to the north West parts collecting 15 000 blood samples of people from Punjab,Haryana,Rajasthan,Gujerat,Jammu and Kashmir.After comparing these samples with with 5000 samples of the Gypsies,the scholar reached a conclusion that Romas are close to Rajputs and Punjabis,and hence rooted strongly in India."

Also,if the evidence was not conclusive,why would the 2001 version of Probert Encyclopaedia claim that Jats are Gypsies?:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia/C7A/HTM ref.Jat

You know that you are on firm ground when the world renouned Probert Encyclopaedia is on your side!

Indeed, the name Zott/Jatt/Zatt was not indescriminately applied to various groups but only to Jats traditionally.(ref. Islamic Mohit,Firduasi,Al Kamus,Muslim chronicles and others specifically call them 'Jats or Jatts,a tribe from Sindh'.)
We also know that Gypsies of Persia are called 'Lalli'(a major Jat clan nameref.,Boctor,Action).Gypsies of Syria are called 'Jats',Gypsies of Iraq are called ''Zotts,Gypsies of Spain are called Gits.Certain nomadic Gypsy groups of Balkhans retain Sindhi Jat tribal clan names of Magsi,Kalaro,Jiskani etc(ref.Boctor,Thomas Action,Hancock etc.)....The evidences are conclusive that Jats are ancestors to Roma of Europe,at least.

Hi nonJat Guys, below please find unaltered excerpts from Angus Fraser’s book The Gypsies, which was published through Oxford! It seems nonJats will have tried every tactic from trying to defeat them to joining them and yet still the Jat stands proud! And your ilk may be the Gypsies!

Then again, some Gypsies who in modern times have themselves studied the problem of origins have been attracted by alternative hypothesis which would make their ancestors khsatriyas – warriors who formed the second rank among the four castes of Hindu society – rather than a motley crew of minstrels and low-caste vagrants; and they have received support from Indian writers [15] in supposing that the Gypsies may descend from Jat and Rajput warriors…Such theories are not infrequently seasoned with a liberal measure of subjectiveness. The refinement which would superimpose on a wave of Jats in the eighth century a second layer of warriors in the twelfth century, after the battle of Tarain in 1192 when the Rajputs were defeated by the Turko-Afghan Ghaznavids, will hardly endear itself to the more skeptical reader.”

15. Notably W. R. Rishi…

In regards to linguistic analysis the order of Indian languages that are closest to Romany are as follow, “Hindi goes into the lead, with Kotgarhi next in line, while Multani is seen to lag much further behind, at about the same level as Panjabi.” Sindhi was the last on the list.

“Whether the original Gypsies were identical with the Jats of India (a people strongly represented in the Punjab) is a matter which has been debated for a hundred years or more and, as already pointed out (p.26), the Jat hypothesis still finds adherents.”

“The difficulty is that the name Zott was in the end applied fairly indiscriminately to anyone originating in the valley of the Indus. These records tell us what was happening to segments of population of Indian origin, particularly the Jats. Whether they tell us anything of the original Gypsy ancestors is highly dubious. The fact that the Arabs gave the name Zott to Gypsies probably means no more than that they transferred to them since they came from India, the name of the Indian people with which they had most frequently come into contact, just as the role of the Franks or French in European history led to “Firanja” from the Latin Francia, coming to mean “Europe” in modern Arabic.”

“The linguistic evidence back in India lends little support to the Jat hypothesis. Another objection of some weight is the fact that a history of migrations concentrated in the south of Persia does not really match the dispersion routes which can be inferred from the way Romani developed in Persian territory.”

Cited:

Frasier, Angus, The Gypsies, Blackwell Publishers Ltd., Oxford, UK, 2000, first published 1992. pp.- 27-28, 31, 35-37

Anon. Jat of Dec.20,7.21pm.,

I don't mean to be rude,but what noncense are you talking about now? Truly,you seem to have degenerated to articulating yourself with barely intelligible gibberish! What ails you,friend? Instead of constantly spewing insults and unsupported noncense,sit back and learn something concrete and truthful for a change.

Here is another link,provided by the World renouned Probert Encyclopaedia,,confirming that Jats are ancestors to the Gypsie Roma of Europe:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM

"The Jat are an ethnic group living in Pakistan and North India,and numbering about 11 million;they are the largest group in North India.The Jat are predominantly farmers.They speak Punjabi,a language belonging to the Indian branch of the Indo-European family.They are thought to be related to the Romany people."

ha ha!

we have to admit that the old blackie hindu loves us jatts really!

he has to!

he swore he was going away---hes promised that many times in the past but back he comes for a further thrashing!

HE IS A SLAVE TO HIS JATT OBSESSION so swallows his"pride" (what?)....any excuse to engage in conversation with JATTS.

proof of his black hindu gypsy status!
You cant take the gypsy outta the hindu!

Ref. Anon. Jat of Dec. 18,2001,9.50 am.,

Friend,it is in fact you who have lost all credability because you continue to make false claims without any supporting evidences.It is rather the Jats who very often do not "know their real father's name" because of the prevalance of fraternal polyandry in their culture.Also it is the Jats that are thought by most scholars today to be the ancestors of the modern day "Gypsy "Roma of Europe. Unlike you,and as usual, I have supported these claims with evidences from relaible sources in the past.The following are just two more of many links backing the above claims:

Harvard research project on polyandry among Jats:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/0500/h014.html

Jat origins of Gypsies. Ref. Zott/Jatt.

http://www.romani.org/rishi/rnames.html

Also,please refer to my previous link on this site,dated Dec. 8,10.22 p.m(web link provided,look under "Scholar in Search of Roma Roots").It provides final conclusive proof with 15000 samples of blood evidences from Indians.The blood evidence proved beyond doubt that Gypsies are "close to Rajputs and Punjabis." The research was conducted in the 80's by the World famous scholar in Gypsiy origins,Dr. Kochanowski.

the hindu here has proved that he is a

black very sick bastard

he knows not his name or his fathers

hindus are gypsies

believe in black spots,evil eye etc
hindus believe in all gypsy traditions and practice them.NAME THEMSELVES AFTER THEIR GYPSY FOREFATHERS!

hindus believe in multiple marriage and partners re;

vedas

mahabharat

kama sutra.

they also live on pavements and in sewers but prone to wander like the gypsies they are as this one of many names can vouch for.

they have no morals..bollywood movies in their own words,actions and lifestyle!

A TRUE HINDU LIFE FOR A PEOPLE WITH NO NAME AND NO COUNTRY TILL 1947 WHEN THE BRITS GAVE IT TO THEM FOR BEING KIND TO EDWINA MOUNTBATTEN!

FILTHY ANIMALS!

IGNORE THIS BLACK BANDHAR..WHATEVER NAMES HE USES BCUZ HE HAS RUN OUT OF ALL CREDIBILITY!

xxx,
Have you tried asking these same elderly Jat bastards from the Doaba area who their real fathers are? I doubt very much if they will give you a straight answer .Odds are, perhaps even in your case,some of the so-called 'fathers' were their very own grandfathers or uncles,due to the common practise of polyandry and widow remarriage among Jats!

The saying that,"you never will get a legitimate answer from a bastard" is very true.I doubt if you will provide an honest answer also to the above question!I believe that the Jat tendency for fabrication,lies and mumbo-jumbo is in the blood;they possess the blood of khawas,of polyandry,of widow remarriage and the like! Filthy.

As usual,Hindus provide full refrences,bibliographies and facts for their claims,but Jats only have mumbo-jumbo. Here are more facts on Jat polyandry from a Harvard research project;
SOURCE>>>http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/0500/h014.html

Exact Quotes:

"The effect of the army recruitment in promoting 'liberal attitude' was commented upon by E. Joseph,deputy commisioner and settlement oficer,Rohtak district from 1905 to 1910."A Jat of my acquaintance procured his son's resignation from the army because his wife could not be trusted alone.All his younger sons were too small to assist in the difficulty.It was considered A COMMON PRACTICE TO BEGET CHILDREN FROM A DEWAR OR JETH WHILE THE HUSBAND WAS AWAY serving in the army...."

"In fact,the folk tradition shows the sharing of women among brothers to be a common phenomenon in colonial Haryana....By the mid-nineteenth century a number of British observers had started to comment on this practice specially in relation to Jats.Darling,writing about the prevalance of this custom identified it as 'polyandry'.THE PRACTICE WAS CLEARLY A PRELUDE TO THE REMARRIAGE OF THE WIDOW IN ITS LEVIRATE FORM.It also explains why despite severe war casualties among the pick of the population in Punjab and the absence of such a large proportion of able-bodied men from their homes,the birth rate was not so severely affected..."

"..In another case decided in 1936,the Hoshairpur district judge held that such a marriage was valid by custom.This case concerned one Joginder Singh,a Jat of the Garhshankar tensil who challenged the sale of 20 Kanals and 7.5 marlas of ancestral land made by his father Dalip Singh...The father resisted the suit....HIS PLEA WAS BASED ON THE CONTENTION THAT HE AND HIS TWO BROTHERS WERE ILLEGITIMATE SONS HAVING BEEN BORN TO MEHR CHAND BY HIS MARRIAGE WITH HIS WIDOWED DAUGHTER-IN-LAW...." By some British estimates,close to 50% of all Jat children were illegitimate during colonial days in one form or other!

For example,Bingley writes,pg.130 Sikhs,"It is almost certain that polyandry is common practice,and the manner in which the brother claims Karewa on the decease of the nominal husband,strongly supports this....The Manjha Jat has small regard for the family honour.There is undoubtly a good deal of free intercourse between married women and their brothers-in-law."

Jats,you can run away from many things but you will NEVER be able to run away from yourselves.The results of generations of polyandry by your ancesters are within your very souls,in your blood,in your unclean Shudra status,and in the bastardization of your progeny.

Hey, reading the kama sutra is more fun then reading your invented Jat wannabe-somebody else history! The Mahabarata is a great piece of literature! How come Jats point to Draupadi or ancient texts when polyandry comes up? Dont you Jats know its been many centuries since Draupadi's story happened? Yet you Jats are still living in the past and continuing this disgusting practice of sharing your wife with your brothers. Isnt it time for you Jats to become civilized and join the 21st century?

I know who my father is, do you? In your case it could be your uncle or even grandfather. All your first cousins are also your half-brothers and sisters.

The entire world knows that Jats are still practising wife-sharing w/their brothers. Just ask the scholars. What are you so afraid of. Thought you guys wanted to real about your real history. The truth is scary isnt.

You admit to marrying your brothers widows. Or are you going to deny that now also. Its sick having sex with your brother's wife, regardless if he is alive or dead. Say hi to your half-sister who is also your first cousin.

Your living in your Jat la-la-land, if you think only one person is trying to keep you from reinvented your Jat wannbe-somebody-else history!

from the vedas to mahabharat to kama sutra to deities to bollywood.

from yesterday to today multiple partners is a hindu common habit as my links showed!

it is not a jat custom but a hindu custom and the proof is in their book of books!

also a billion hindus on pavements proove the point of this and their gypsy origin.

this hindu writes new names for each post...indicating his lack of known father!

Maybe if the Jats stops killing their girls, then their sons wouldn't have to share the same wife!

Also if the Jats stoped spending all their money on drinks, they might be able to buy separate wives for each of their sons. I feel sorry for the Jatti wives that have had to put up with being passed around to the different brother-in-laws each night.

Gross! Pooh-Pooh!

Hi Anon. of Dec 13 8.08PM,

As per some folks who reviewed this page suggested to add a word 'Bahman' to your term "Black Hindu"--- More specifically, "black Bahman Hindu".

Incidently, some elderly Jat folks from Doaba area told me that in their area of Punjab they always addressed a Bahman as KUTTA Bahman. Also, meeting a Bahman is considered a bad luck or a bad omen, particularly in the early morning.

Moreover, they mostly used these Bahmans to cook their food at festive occasions. As per these folks these Bahmans were mostly shopkeepers in villages. NO WONDER THIS BAHMAN HAS EXTREMELY HARD FEELINGS towards THE JATS-- I DO NOT BLAME A BIT THIS POOR BAHMAN! Best wishes to all.

SOURCE>>> http://www.cryonics.org/chapter5_1.html
ref."Varieties of Marriage"

Exact Quotes:

"M.D. Singh writes about the Shudras of India in 1907: When a Jat is well-to-do he generally procures a wife for each of his sons,but if he is not rich enough to bear the expenses of many marriages,he gets a wife for his eldest son only,and she is expected to,and as a rule does,accept her brothers-in-law as co-husbands...the wife not infrequently bestows her favours on all of them equally,by turn,ONE EVENING BEING RESERVED FOR EACH...."

Everytime I read this,it disgusts me!

Polygyny is polygamy in which a man has more than one wife.This is practised by the Muslims,mormons,Jews,etc.


Polyandry on the other hand, is polygamy in which a husband shares his wife with more than one man.Note that the only groups of people in the World who practice polyandry on a consistent and large scale are the Jats(fraternal polyandry) and the Tibetians(see previous posts for web links)...The main reason for engaging in fraternal polyandry is to prevent fragmentation of land holdings......

By far,polyandry is far more demeaning than polygyny.

A.H. Rose.'Glossary of Tribes and Castes',p.g. 367,"The Jat father is made to say,in the rhyming proverbs of the country Side--"come my daughter,and be married;if this husband dies there are plenty more."

Talk is cheap Anon.,but we all know who the polyanderers and,forgive the crude word, Bastards are.
Jat,you can run away from many things,but you will NEVER be able to excape from yourselves!

Sorry friend;

black hindu!

joker!

read the links!

NO NEED TO RE WRITE THEM!

polygamy and polyandry are part and parcel of hindu life from the VEDAS TO MAHABHARAT TO THE DEITIES WITH 5 HUSBANDS TO THE BILLION HINDUS OF TODAY!

THAT EXPLAINS WHY THERE ARE ONE BILLION HINDUS LIVING A SAD GPYSY LIFE ON THE PAVEMENTS AND IN THE SEWERS!

THAT CAN MAKE YOU SEMI BLIND AND CAUSE YOU TO TRY TO RE WORK PERFECTLY SET OUT LINKS PROVING THAT WIFE SHARING IS A HINDU COMMON CUSTOM!

now pull some other cheap stunt you thick duffer!

Friend,,I have read your links and this is what they say:

"The law permits a Hindu male to have only one wife.AMuslim male is allowed to have more than one wife...."

"In India as a whole,the incidence of polygynous marriage is highest among the persons returning their religion as tribal religion." Indeed,we all know that Jats,Gujars,Chamars etc. are tribalists....

"According to the scriptures of Manu,divorce and remarriage WERE NOT PERMITTED.Most refrences to marriage in the ancient texts suggest that the Aryans were monogomous."

Anon.,you should read your links before you post them.They seem to be testifying against you!

This is what Bingley says about Jats in "Sikhs",pg.130,

"It is almost certain that Polyandry is common in practice,and the manner in which the brother claims Karewa on the decease of the nominal husband,strongly supports this.The girl is considered as purchased by the family,who can seldom afford to pay so large a sum as her price twice over.The Manjha Jat,in fact,has small regard fro the family honour.There is undoubtly a good deal of free intercourse between married women and their brothers-in-law."

Jats,you may be able to run away from many things,but you will NEVER be able to run away from yourselves..


Regards.....

WILL RAHUAL MAKE UP HIS MIND WHAT HIS NAME IS(HE WILL WHEN HE KNOWS WHO HIS FATHER IS!) BUT EVERYONE OF HIS POSTS HAS HAD A DIFFERENT NAME FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS(WONDER WHY?!)

we can see that old blackie rahul is having problems equating to the VEDAS and MAHABHARAT suddenly!

as a good hindu he has to accept that polygamy and polyandry of hindu daily life has its roots in the VEDAS and MAHABHARAT and low and behold...but suddenly he is struck BLIND!

kama sutra is hindu,dowry,brideprice,child marriage,sati etc is hindu and the reason that hindus are cunning beggars.

wife sharing,polygamy and polyandry is hindu and its borne out daily by hindus on the streets,on the pavements and on the silver bollywood screens!

Attn; Anonymous of Dec. 13,2001,6.51p.m.,

It is infact the Jats who are World Renouned polyanderers and a widow-marrying low Shudra Caste.As usual, and unlik you,I will provide evidenceS to support this self-evident truth,in addition to evidenceS already supplied previously.
Here is one more link:
http://www.cryonics.org/chapter5_1.html

Robert C.W. Ettinger,in his latest book,"The prospect of Immortality",chapter 5,'Transex and Supersex' writes this;

"...M.D. Singh writes about the Sudras of India in 1907:When a Jat is well-to-do he generally procures a wife for each of his sons,but if he is not rich enough to bear the expenses of many marriages,he gets a wife for his eldest son only,AND SHE IS EXPECTED TO,AND AS A RULE DOES,ACCEPT HER BROTHERS-IN-LAWS AS CO-HUSBANDS...THE WIFE NOT INFREQUENTLY BESTOWS HER FAVOURS ON ALL OF THEM EQUALLY,BY TURN,ONE EVENING BEING RESERVED FOR EACH...."

YUCKS!!!

there are more than 6000 links for hindu polygamy and polyandry!

here is more evidence

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf/SAsia/repro3/mohanrao.html


its interesting to note that hindus have a higher rate of polgamy than muslims!


more:

http://www.indiaprofile.com/lifestyle/jaunsarbawar.htm


no wonder these black hindu rahul gypsies are sick in the head and wander about with no shame!

wife sharing by brothers is a hindu custom and not a jat custom.

just as the mad hindu,the black rahul tried but failed to pin the black spot,the evil eye and the hindu gypsy origins on anybody but hindus,he is now trying the same with wifesharing.

wife sharing and loose morals are a hindu thing.

they originate from the vedas and MAHABHARAT itself!

look and see.enjoy!

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/mythology/Mahabharat/Draupadi.htm


http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/weddings/weddings.htm

hindus are good and "pious" as the black hindu here tells us.they follow in the footsteps of the vedas!

the deity DRAUPADI had 5 husbands who were brothers.
that custom is STILL popular amongest hindus today,whereby when one brother is sleeping with the wife,he leaves his shoes by the door to let the others know.

hindu morals or lack of are shown daily in the bollywood films.count the amount of wives,husbands and boy/girlfriends anyone of those people have.

blackie rahul thinks that just by stating rubbish over and over with no evidence will make it happen in the case of jats but its there in the vedas.its there in hindu india only and its shown by bollywood!

ref. to posting of 9.07a.m. for web link source:

"The effect of the army recruitment in promoting 'liberal attitude' was commented upon by E. Joseph,deputy commissioner and settlement officer,Rohtak district from 1905 to 1910.'A Jat of my acquaintence procured his son's resignation from the army because his wife could not be trusted alone.All his younger sons were too young to assist in the difficulty.It was considered A COMMON PRACTICE TO BEGET CHILDREN FROM A DEWAR OR JETH WHILE THE HUSBAND WAS AWAY SERVING IN THE ARMY....In fact the folk tradition shows the sharing of women among brothers to be A COMMON PHENOMENON....."

"The opinion of the courts regarding the validity of the remarriage of a widow to her father-in-law differed widely because it was derived from customary law which was not merely caste based but also status and region based.For example in 1934,in the Ambala district there was the case of a JAT WHO CHALLENGED VALIDITY OF CUSTOM REGARDING KAREWA MARRIAGE WITH HIS WIDOWED DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.However the case was lost by the father-in-law who appealed to the Lahore high court.The high court also rejected it and mantained that the custom of Karewa marriage between a Jat and his widowed daughter was invalid." Obviously,this ruling did not deter Jat father-in-laws from marrying their widowed daughters,as is conclusively shown by Darling and others by countless examples of this atrocious perversity!.

"However,this judgment did not apparently lay down a general rule of custom applicable to the entire province.For instance,in another case decided in 1936,the Hoshairpur district judge took a dfferent view and held,on the evidence,that such a marriage was valid by custom.This case concerned one Joginder Singh,a Jat,of the Garhsankar tensil who challenged the sale of 20 Kanals and 7.5 marlas of ancestral land made by his father Dalip Singh....The father resisted the suit on the ground that the claimant did not possess reversionary rights as the land was ancestral.His plea was based on the custom that he (Dalip)and his two brothers WERE ILLEGITIMATE SONS HAVING BEEN BORN TO MEHAR CHAND BY HIS MARRIAGE WITH HIS WIDOWED DAUGHTER WHICH WAS INVALID......."
In their opinion the the union of the father-in-law and the widowed daughter would be judged illegal under the law,if it did not get social recognition...." Whichever way you look at it,socially,politically,legally,status wise,etc.these people are bastards......

"WOMEN CONSTANTLY COME FORLWARD AND ADMIT THEY HAVE HAD ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN,BUT DENY MARRIAGE WITH THE FATHER OF THE CHILDREN IN ORDER NOT TO LOOSE THEIR ESTATES .......Indeed,a widow who was successful in denying a remarried status stood to gain enormously...."

"THERE ARE COUNTLESS RECORDED INSTANCES OF BROTHERS-IN-LAWS AMONG JATS OF KARNAL AND GUJAARS OF SINDH TAKING OVER THE WIDOWS AS WIFES AND THEIR 'ILLICIT'CHILDREN AS THEIR OWN;OR INSTANCES OF PREGNANT WOMEN BEING MARRIED OFF TO THEIR BROTHER-IN-LAWS,THOUGH PREGNANCY WAS OPENLY KNOWN NOT TO BE DUE TO HIM...."

welcome to SHUDRA LANd....Disgusting.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/0500/h014.html

The stigma of the Shudrasf widow-marriage,polyandry and bastardization;

Quotes from aboce:

"In fact,the folk tradition shows the sharing of women among brothers to be a common phenomenon in colonial Haryana.Muslim scholar traveller Al-berum and later historians as ghulam Basit and Mohammad Qasim also referred to a similar practice in Punjab,spurred on perhaps by the repeated invasions of this region and prolonged absence of men serving in the military.By the mid-nineteenth century a number of British observers had started to comment on this practice SPECIALLY IN RELATION TO THE JATS.DARLING,WRITING ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF THIS CUSTOM IDENTIFIED IS AS 'POLYANDRY'.THE PRACTICE WAS CLEARLY A PRELUDE TO THE REMARRIAGE OF THE WIDOW IN ITS LEVIRATE FORM.It also explains why despite severe war casualties among the pick of the population and the absence of such a large population of able-bodied men from their homes,the birth rate was not so severely affected.The children so conceieved were considered to have been sired by the husband.

'A popular local story dating back to colonial days illustrated this acceptance:

First man: After how many years have you come home?

second man: After three years.

First man:And how old is your child?

Second man: two years.

First man: How come?

Second Man(mildly):well,I had sent home my dhoti.

Among high-caste Hindus,neither the labour power of a widow nor her reproduction power was needed.The Brahminical code accepted a woman's sexual and social death after her husband's death..."

Hi XXX-JAT Anon. and others jats,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to my earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient history-- please do your best. I will understand IF YOU CANT.

Please prove the following:
1. Existance of a Jat Country
2. Existance of a Jat Religion
3. Existance of a Jat Archaeological Evidence
4. Existance of a Jat Alphabet
5. Existance of Jat Science
6. Existance of Jat Astronomy
7. Existance of Jat Mathematics
8. Existance of Jat Monuments
9. Existance of a world recognised jat

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--


ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited in today's day and age CONSITER THEY ARE WHITES, PIERCE THEIR BODY, HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO ACCEPCT THEY ARE GYPSIES, HIT THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDRENS, GET DRUNK AND SLEEP ON PAVEMENTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES --- and unable to prove history and have taken on other foreign and other people's religion and culture from the dawn of their history? " Best wishes.

Ref;XXX your unsupported noncense of Dec. 9,2001,6;00pm.

Again XXX, I must insist that you provide back-up for your gibberish.Ovviously you have none!Talk is cheap but evidence is indeed priceless....It is infact the Jats who somentimes share a common wife among brothers....As usual,and unlike you,I will support my claims:

A.H. Bingley,"Sikhs",pg. 130 says,"It is almost certain that polyandry is COMMON in practice....The Manjha Jat,in fact,has small regard for the family honour.There is undoublty a good deal of free intercourse between married women and their brothers-in-law."

Also,C.Padhan,pg.87 in "Tribal Groups" says,"In the Jat families,younger unmarried brothers are allowed access to their elder brother's wife.In some cases the elder unmarried brother may have access to his younger brother's wife....It is considerable economic gain for a married brother if an unmarried brother comes and lives with him and gives his share and income from the family property.This is one of the reasons why married brothers seldom object to such sexual access to their wifes.In some cases they even ask their wifes to try to gain favours of their unmarried brothers....The husband remains the legal father of the children irrespective of the biological paternity."

the bahmans of india practise multiple marriage with the woman being in the position of having,two or more husbands.

it is very common amongest sharmas as was shown on TV and in the national media ie The Times.

apparently some of the younger generation is objecting to sharing their wives but the older bahmans say they are very happy and prefer the old ways.

one woman nirmala who looked and dressed like the hindu bahman gypsy that they are said that every body is very polite.she was first married to the older brother when she was 19 and he was 35.after a few years she"married" the next one down 29 and later the 27 year old.

between them they have 11 children and they are all happy and have no hangups about who is the father.

no one knows or cares.

when nirmala is sleeping with one brother,he places his chappels outside the door so that the other brothers can take a hike or a walk!

charming!

this is normal practise for blackie hindus.

thats why old indira and nehru did not like them and all the gandhis decided to marry out!

take a look at bollywood which is a perfect indication of blackie gypsy hindu life.

they extoll the "virtues" of hindu life only which is drinking,killing,corrupting and shaking bare bums and boobs in every khans face and more!

look at all the hindu women married to muslims.

look at those in the past whose mothers are hindu but fathers are muslim.

and look at the katak dance which is passed off as classical dance.it was created for the entertainment of bahman priests,in the temple by underage girls offered up by poor bedraggled hindu families.

old blackie bihari rahul never answers the question posed to him ,but he seems smitten by someone called "CROOKE".

well maybe "crooke" is his father for him to live by his word but to ignore 500 plus references of 2500 years of jat history.no,he actually cannot ignore it and thats why he is here,is obsessed by jats and envious of jats!

yeah fellas,we can safely say that old blackie gypsy rahul the hindu is typical bahman in more ways than one!

he is "crooke" by name....crook by nature!

i will be back very soon!

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010413/cth1.htm

Exact quotes for the following and the preceding post(10.22 pm.Dec 8) are taken from the Tribune News Services.Refer to web link please.

Forgotten children of India visit home.

Though the fact that the Roma Gypsies migrated from India came to light only about 300 years ago with the coming of the British to India,these nomads have been preserving the Indian element among themselves.Their character reflected Indian traits.Evidence that they were rooted to India comes from the fact that they like us,call water 'pani" and eye "aankh".

No wonder then,that the 14 odd Roma delegates,who were in the city today to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the International Roma Union,felt nostalgic.Many of them were touched by the warmth of the Indian people,especially the Rajasthanis and Punjabis and could not hide their urge to be accepted by the Indian government as the "forgotten children of India."

The day was all about Romas,their history,origin,immense struggles and misfortune in that they still have no "official" homeland....And while various chapters of the history of these ancient children of India unfolded before one's eyes,one realised how deeply were they linked to India,and especially to Punjab,which had been home to many Roma clans.


And after speaking to about six delegates,one could only feel proud of the Indian lineage of these people who,despite their history of enslavement at the hands of the Facists forces,had mantained their dignity.

Leader of the delegation,Dr. Emil Scuka,was more than thrilled to be in India,"I have grown up loving Indian
culture and languages.In fact,Romani language is extremely close to Rajasthani,Punjabi and Gujerati."

Significant among them are the official acceptance of the Roma as the children of India....One delegate informed in the Czeck republic,Roma children were termed mentally incompetent and were required to study in special schools meant for the physically and mentally challenged.

Note:dont forget to read the related article,which has finally conclusively proved,with 15 000 samples of blood tests,conducted by the World renouned Dr. Vania Gila Kochanowski, that Roma are "close to Rajputs and Punjabis."(10.22 pm,Dec 8)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010413/cth1.htm

Blood test confirms Roma related to Rajputs and Punjabis:

Scholar in Search of Roma roots.

Dr. Vaniade Gila Kochanowski,the renouned Roma scholar from France,is supported by millions of Roma friends spread all over the Globe....Members of the French National Council of Regional Languages,Culture and of the Commette of Auschwich,Dr. Vania is also president of the association called Roma Yekhipe France.Not just that,he has been roped in by UNESCO to continue his activities towards tracing the roots of Romani people.

Dr. Vania was able to establish a direct connection between the Indian Rajputs and Punjabis and the Romas.He had gone around the Country,especially to the North West parts collecting 15000 blood samples of people from Punjab,Haryana,Rajasthan,Gujerat,Jammu and Kashmir.After comparing these samples with 5000 samples of the Gypsies,the scholar reached a conclusion that Romas are close to Rajputs and Punjabis,and hence rooted strongly in India.

His works,especially his two phd. thesis(General Linguistics and Dialectology;Roma Chave(European Gypsies):Assimilation or integration) are outstanding in their purpose.....The Romas,which number over 15 millions,are still struggling for a homeland.

Roma/Jat-Punjabi Rules

Hi XXX-JAT Anon. and others jats,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to my earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient history-- please do your best. I will understand IF YOU CANT.

Please prove the following:
1. Existance of a Jat Country
2. Existance of a Jat Religion
3. Existance of a Jat Archaeological Evidence
4. Existance of a Jat Alphabet
5. Existance of Jat Science
6. Existance of Jat Astronomy
7. Existance of Jat Mathematics
8. Existance of Jat Monuments
9. Existance of a world recognised jat

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--


ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited in today's day and age CONSITER THEY ARE WHITES, PIERCE THEIR BODY, HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO ACCEPCT THEY ARE GYPSIES, HIT THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDRENS, GET DRUNK AND SLEEP ON PAVEMENTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES --- and unable to prove history and have taken on other foreign and other people's religion and culture from the dawn of their history? " Best wishes.

hi folks!

http://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap10.htm

this link will show you yet again a black brahmin "aryan"!

hitler would turn in his grave to be linked to these but have a link they do!

this link will also tell you about bahman hindu begging as part and parcel of their daily life.
it is considered by them to be an occupation and i have seen them do it in punjab.
these bahmans gypsy, cant help it as its in the blood.

just as a JAT is a farmer/landowner so a bahman is a gypsy is a beggar.

now read this;
Brahmins of India by J.Radhakrishna

1. 80% of Brahmins are the butt of ridicule in India.

2.in the 5-18 year old brahmin age groups ,44% stopped education at primary level.

3. 36% of those stopped school at pre matric level.

4. 55% 0f all brahmins live below the poverty line on R's65 per month.

5.appalling poverty drives brahmins from the rural areas to the cities where brahmin unemployment rates are 75%.

6.largest percentage of brahmins are domestic servants and drivers.

that is the reason they beg at JAT HOUSES FOR FOOD,MONEY AND CLOTHES.

its called "bhojan"

thats also the reason that this blackie gypsy hindu here is so envious of jats and indeed obsessed by us.

kind regards and i will post again very soon.

Notice the Master-Servant relationship between Rajput and Jat in medeieval India as expounded by Crooke below.In most parts of gujerat and many places in Rajasthan,this master-servant relationship still endures till this day.Old habits die out hard;

W. Crooke,in his comprehensive work "Castes of North West Provinces",pg.33 Vol.3, says;

"In the old days of Rajput ascendancy the Rajputs would not allow the Jats or any other low caste,to cover their head with a turban,nor to bear any red clothes,nor to put a crown(Muhar)on the heads of their bridegrooms or a jewel(Nath)in the women's nose,due to their high social position."

In fact,in Medeieval India,Rajputs were the biggest oppressors of Jats,and the above mentioned oppressions are but the milder incarnations.Much,much worse atrocaties were commited by Rajputs against Jats during the formative years of Medeieval Indian history!

Indeed,Jatnis were good enough for Rajputs only as their mistresses or concubines,(as per Bingley,'Sikhs" pg.12) but not as wifes,and even this practise was banned by around the 5th Century A.D.(as per Bingley,Lyall etc.),because it became quite prevalent and threatned the very fabric of Rajput social structure.Thereafter,even bastard unions between Rajput and Jat were curtailed to a bare minimal!

note: Obviously marriages between so-called 'Rajput Sikhs' and Jat Sikhs today in Punjab in no way represent the true framework of Caste relations between Hindu Rajput and Jat,say, of Gujarat,Rajsthan etc., because Sikhs are outside the pale of Hinduism and Rajput Sikhs have therefore given up,to a vaste degree,the unique Kshastriya status which they enjoyed within the framework of Brahaminism.In short,these Rajputs have fallen!Even then,many conservative so-called Sikh Rajputs will still not give their daughters to Jats.Traditions die hard.Therefore the only occasion at which a Rajput may conceievably marry a Jat on equal terms is within the framework of Sikhism! I would tempt a Jat Sikh to go to Gujerat and ask the had of a proper Hindu Rajput girl in marriage;the reception would be none too flattering for the Jat,I assure you.In short,dont even try.

Hi XXX-JAT Anon. and others jats,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to my earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient history-- please do your best. I will understand IF YOU CANT.

Please prove the following:
1. Existance of a Jat Country
2. Existance of a Jat Religion
3. Existance of a Jat Archaeological Evidence
4. Existance of a Jat Alphabet
5. Existance of Jat Science
6. Existance of Jat Astronomy
7. Existance of Jat Mathematics
8. Existance of Jat Monuments
9. Existance of a world recognised jat

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--


ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited in today's day and age CONSITER THEY ARE WHITES, PIERCE THEIR BODY, HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO ACCEPCT THEY ARE GYPSIES, HIT THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDRENS, GET DRUNK AND SLEEP ON PAVEMENTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES --- and unable to prove history and have taken on other foreign and other people's religion and culture from the dawn of their history? " Best wishes.

Baden and Powell state;"Although a Rajput might sink to be a Jat by marrying a widow,or by taking to agricilture under certain circumstances,the difference between the customs of the two 'races' and the cause of their histories show that the progenitors of the pure Rajput clans were in India before the Jats;and that the two 'races' were originally distinct.Throughout history,the Jats have appeared perfectly distinct from the Hindu Rajput.They have often been in conflict with them;and there are NO INSTANCES OF A MAN BORN A JAT RAISING HIMSELF TO RAJPUT CASTE."

THERE IS NO 'SPECIAL' RACIAL CONNECTION BETWEEN JATS AND RAJPUTS......

There is,nor ever was, a unique or special racial connectiion between the Jat and the Rajput.A true Rajput would be terribly offended if a Jat were to claim kinship with him on equal trems!


The reasons;

(1)Jats are hardly the only Caste in North India professing so-called 'Scythian' origins.The Gujaar,Tarkhan,Chamar etc. also provides 'compelling' evidences for supposed Scythian origins..In fact,as regards the legend of Mt. Abu,the Gujaar has more prima facie evidences to support his claims than either the Jat or Chamar.(Lyall,Ibbetson)

(2)Scholars are divided as to the origins of Rajputs themselves.We all know the divergent views of Cunningham vs. Tod etc.

(3)This is the most important point and will consume the bulk of the discussion.Rajputs ARE NOT a pure race,whether they may have been originally Scythian or Aryan or Martian!!The Rajput caste is a social,political, and to a lesser degree, an ethnic construct, that transcends 'race' at all levels of Hindu society.Socially, the Rajput is far above the Jat,and that is the end of the story.Indeed,Rajput sub-castes are held together by a common Kshastriya origin and shared pride in their social standing within the Hindu Caste hierarchy!Even the poorest Rajput is socially higher than the richest Jat within the framework of Hinduism.

It is also a well-known fact that among the Rajputs there are many descendents of aboroginals whose fighting qualities entitled them to respect.Sir Denzel Ibbetson says,"a tribe of any caste whatever,which had in ancient times possessed supreme power throughout any fairly extensive tract of Country would be classed as Rajput.It seems almost certain that some of the so-called Rajput families were aboroginal,and he instanced the Chandel.A very similar process has gone on all through the Himalayas from Chitral to Nepal especially in the Kangara hills and Kulu hills.In the latter tract,the Thakur is often an enobled Kanet.In Kangra,the Rathi is a debased Rajput or a promoted Ghirth." He further states,"The first four sections of the Dashals--Gonds,Theogs,Madhans,Darkoits etc were for a long time after their migration to the hills,considered to be low caste like the Kanets.Gradually however they mixed with the Rajputs and began to give their daughters in marriage to wealthy Rajputs.Afterward the Rajput also condescended to marry their daughters to them." Sir James Lyall wrote,"...a Raja promoted a Girth to a Rathiand, a Thakur to a Rajput,for service done or money given......On the border line in the Himalayas,between Tibet and India proper,anyone can observe Caste growing before his eyes;the Brahmin degrading to a Rajput,the noble is changing into Rajput,the priest into a Brahman,the peasant into a Jat and so on down the bottom of the scale..."

Indeed Sir Herbert Risley informs us wisely that the "idea of Kinship certainly is the oldest and perhaps the most enduring factor in the caste system and seems to have supplied the framework and the motive principals of the more modern restrictions based upon ceremonial usage and community of occupation." Much depends on the extent to which different castes follow Brahmanical principals and observe the orthodox tenets of Hinduism;and it must be remembered that many of the lower castes,have animistic beliefs and worship gods and godlings unknown to Brahmanism.These groups live in ignorance of Brahminical doctrines,wherelse higher castes base their social code on the Hindu scriptures.

According to Dr. ketkar the "conception of purity and impurity is the key to many of the apparent enigmas of the caste system",and he regards it as " the chief principle on which the system depends." He says,"the Brahman is at the top of society because he is more pure and sacred than other castes,while Mahar and Pariyan are at the bottom because they are impure.Thus purity is the pivot on which the entire system turns.Rank,social position,economic conditions have NO direct effect on the gradation from the standpoint of Caste.Caste in India is strong and rigid because the ideas of the people regarding purity and pollution are rigid." Therefore,the idea of relative purity and consequent social inequality underlines the rules as to eating and drinking together,for example.

Dr. kethar further writes,"The ideas as to what are honourable and what are dishonourable occupations are so extraordinarily varied that they can be reduced to no common factor.The higher castes despise manual labour and consider it beneath their dignity.Those castes whose heredity means of livelyhood is handicrafts,such as carpentry,pottery-making,oil manufacture,peasantry,blacksmith's work etc. all come within the lower grades of castes.Neither Brahmins nor Rajputs,many of whome are economically and socially powerful,may undertake the physical labour of cultivation,and above all,they must not,however poor,drive the plough.To do so is derogatory to their high estate,and they must mantain themselves only as gentlemen of high estate....One main object of the Law of Manu was to mantain the Brahman in a privilaged position as a Sacrosanct order with a monopoly on learning...."

I hope you people are able to digest this and learn off it!

Hi XXX,ref. your noncense of Friday Dec.7.11.44am.,

Actually it is the Jats who are the truly 'defeated people'.Unlike you,I will back up my claim with evidences as usual;

Bingley in "Sikhs" pg.14 says,"West of the Indus and the Ravi the Jats became Muslamans,AND BEING A CONQUERED PEOPLE,of no political importance,were looked down upon by the Pathans,Mughals,and Moslims of Rajput descent,who seized their lands,and thus drove them to seek a living as nomads wandering with their herds over the grazing-grounds of the Western plains of Punjab.To this day,in Scinde and the Doab of the Indus and Sutlej,'Jat' is the usual term for a grazier or herdsman and is applied to Jats proper,degraded Rajputs,and Mongrels."

Also,we all know that Jats of today do not have a Country of their own but are under the total and direct domination of the Brahmins from New Delhi!So XXX,it is infact very safe to proclaim rather that the Jats are the truly 'Defeated people'.!

No offence.Just the truth.
Regards.

Hi XXX-JAT Anon. and others jats,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to my earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient history-- please do your best. I will understand IF YOU CANT.

Please prove the following:
1. Existance of a Jat Country
2. Existance of a Jat Religion
3. Existance of a Jat Archaeological Evidence
4. Existance of a Jat Alphabet
5. Existance of Jat Science
6. Existance of Jat Astronomy
7. Existance of Jat Mathematics
8. Existance of Jat Monuments
9. Existance of a world recognised jat

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--


ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited in today's day and age CONSITER THEY ARE WHITES, PIERCE THEIR BODY, HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO ACCEPCT THEY ARE GYPSIES, HIT THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDRENS, GET DRUNK AND SLEEP ON PAVEMENTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES --- and unable to prove history and have taken on other foreign and other people's religion and culture from the dawn of their history? " Best wishes.

They say that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." What the "thich-headed and slow Jats" (as per Bingley) on this net do not comprehend is that everytime they harken to Mt. Abu to prove kinship with Rajputs,they are invariably calling themselves BASTARDS.Forgive the vulgarity,but there is simply no equivalent term!!

For instance,the the legend of Mt. Abu is "claimed" not only by Jats but by Gujaars and Chamars also.In fact the agni- kula clans figure more prominently in Gujaar and Chamar tradition and history than in Jat!! This is what Sir Ibetson says with refrence to the four agni- cula clans,"the Gujara connection of the Pariharas has been proved" and Mr. Vincent Smith writes,"a strong presumption has been made that the other three "fireborn" clans the Solanki or Chalakya,the Pawar or Paramara and the Chauhan or Chahamana,have Gujaar and indeginious connections."

Yet Ibetson is cautious,"the mere fact that agni- cula tribes share Gujara names in this instance is not conclusive prove that they have Gujara blood."

So here are the facts: with regard to the agni-cular clan names,Jat claims figure less prominently and with less independent support than Gujars(as per Ibetson,Vincent Smith) and Chamars.The above mentioned agni-cular clan names perfectly synchronise with Chamar and Gujar clan names and other written and oral traditions,for instance,Parihar ,Chauhan,Solanki testifying to a Master-Servant relationships with regards to Rajputs verses Jat,Gujars and Chamars.
Also,history knows all too well that the three main tribes claiming kinship to the agni-kula clan names are Gujars,Chamara and Jats--all Shudra castes;Shudra refers to either aboroginals or to 'half-breeds' and 'mixed-Aryans' as per Bingley(pg.5).Obviousy these castes WERE NEVER accepted into the Rajput fraternity and the agni- kula clans with connections to Rajputs were never honoured with Rajput status, since they mantain their Shudra class and low-caste practices like widow marriage and polyandry till this day!

Besides the above four cases,there is conclusive evidence and Bingley agrees with Ibetson(pg.12) and Vincent Smith and almost all others that "From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who receieved them as concubines;and it is more than probable that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions." In fact,we just discussed Mt. Abu as one such example,albeit 'unprofessionally' cloaked in fantastic legend.An effective way to minimise the shame of bastard unions in medeieval India was to color it with fantastic stories like Mt Abu and the following COLORFUL and silly story(as per Bingley pg.12),"It is strange that many Jat tribes of this lineage concur in the same ridiculous story that their ancestress was a beautiful Jatni who,while going along with a waterpot on her head,stopped a runaway buffalo by pressing her foot on the rope tied to its neck,and did without spilling the water.This feat of strength so pleased a Rajput chieftain who was looking on,that he immediately placed her in his Zanana,and thus a new got or family sprang from the connection." The general intent of this legend and others is ofcourse to cloak illicit unions between Lords and servants for posterity and to attempt to steal somesort of "Rajput connection",nomatter how debased its foundation,in an attempt to raise the social status of a poor caste!Yet the Aryans were not fooled as they clearly designated the products of such unions Shudras.The evidence is for all to see today;Jats,Chamars and Gujars are Shudras,but Rajputs are Kshastriyas!

Therefore Jats on this net,the more you cling to legends like Mt. Abu and the one just quoted from Bingley,the more you are reinforcing for the World that your people are Bastards,forgive the crude word,but I like to be precise with my termanology!

Hi Raul,

It is interesting to note that in your motherland-- the other day someone was calling it HINDULAND-- you use proverbs such as

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--

Again, the other day, I note someone calling you guys just a timid people or people who worship items such as stones, rats, donkeys,---! ---Is it true?

I look forword to hearig your serious response to my earlier question.

Also, many thanks for your positive or negative interest in JATS' 2500 years of recorded history. It gives Jats lot of confidence in their colourful roots---- because even the DEFEATED people have a strong interest in their roots! Please excuse if I-- Very best wishes.

Indeed,Jat history is for the most part unvarifiable and lacking in evidences.Presumably,we are all fairly familiar with Jat psudo-intellectuals like Dahya,Dhillon and Nonica Datta ,who are,to put it mildly,literally laughed at within serious intellectual circles..Even Jats themselves admit the paucity of their written and varifiable 'history' and the 'unscholarly' quality of their so-called native historians. ref. http://www.jatland.com/history/books.htm

Bingley says,"We know little or nothing of the ancient history of the Jats.As early as the 7th Century Jats of the Scinde were ruled over by a Brahmin Dynasty,and by 11th century they had spread into Punjab proper.We first hear of them in the annals of Muhammadan historians,who tell us that in 1024 the Jats of Scinde cut up several detachments of Mahmud's army.....To punish these outrages,Mahmud commenced operations against them in 1026A.D......We hear nothing of them until 1658...."

So,the above is basically the outline of varifiable Jat history.

Lets recap:
According to Bingley and most other scholars,the following is the outline of Jat history;

(1)Almost nothing about Jat history can be varified before the 7th Century.

(2)Between the 7th and 11th Centuries they are mentioned sporadically,mostly by Muhammaden chroniclers,in connection with their forced migration to Baghdad,ultimate defeat and dispersion into Eastern Europe as the precursors of European Romany.They are also mentioned as being expelled by Mahmud Ghazni at around 1026 in what has been called the Gypsy diaspora.

(3)After this,"we hear nothing more of them,or of their military exploits,until 1658."

Sir Ibertson educates us on "Rajput dynasties perhaps more ancient and unbroken than can be shown by any other Royal family in the World..."

For example the Suraj Bansi Rajput house of Luddu spans 2800 years of history originating with Bhum Chand,a Raja in Kangra,and a devotee of Durga of shakti.He had a son, Susram Chand of the Mahabharat.He sided with the Kauravas on the Kurukshetra field of battle.Sushram finally fell to fighting with an ally of Pandavas,Raja Virata.... Even if we just rely on the written and varifiable history of this dynasty,we still have at least 1800 years of written unbroken history as regards the Luddu clan starting with Khamb Chand, 21st in descent from Bhum Chand,who attacked Nangal and its dependencies...These examples can be compounded if necessary.

Jat superstitions;

Bingley writes,"Smallpox and kindred pustular diseases are supposed to be caused by a bond of seven sisters,of whome Sitala or Mata is the greatest and most virulent.Others of the group are Devi,Masani,Basanti.Maha Mai,Polamade,Lamkaria and Agwani.There is generally a shrine to Sitala in every village.She is never worshipped by men,but only by women and children,generally on Mondays.During an epidermic of small-pox,no offerings are made;and if the disease has once seized the village,all offerings are discontinued until it has disappeared,as otherwise the evil will spread.So long,as she stays her hands,nothing is too good for the goddess.And adult,who has recovered from small-pox,should let a pig loose to sitala,of he will be again attacked...."

Bingley writes "The worship of the sainted dead,though contrary to the injunctions of Govind Singh,is universal among Jats,whether Sikhs,Sultanis or Hindus.Small shrines to petris or ancestors will be found all over the fields,and there is generally a large one to the Jathera or common ancestor of the clan.Villagers who have migrated will periodically make long pilgrimages to worship at the shrine of their ancestor,or if the distance is too great will bring away a brick from the original shrine and use it as the foundation of a new one.The fifteenth of the month is sacred to the Pitrs,and on that day the cattle should do no work."

Sir Denzel Ibbertson wrote,"But in the hills,where Rajput dynasties with geneologies perhaps more ancient and unbroken than can be shown by any other Royal Families in the World retained their independence as of yesterday,where many of them still enjoy as great social authority as ever,the twin processes of degradation from and elevation to Rajput rank are still to be seen in operation.The Rajaputra is there the fountain not only of honour but also of caste,which is the same thing as in India.

Sir James Lyall wrote," Till lately,the limits of castes do not seem to have been so immutably fixed in the hills as in the plains.The Raja was the fountain of honour,and could do much as he liked.I have heard old men quote instances within their memory in which a Rajaputra promoted a Ghirth to be a Rathi and a Thakur to be a Rajput,for service done or money given.Kotlehr and Bangahal were Brahmins who lowered to Rajputs...On the border line in the Himalayas,between Tibet and India proper,anyone can observe caste growing befor his eyes.The nobel is changing into Rajput,the priest into Brahman,the peasant into a Jat,and so on down to the bottom of the scale...."


Indeed,Sunny has lied,made claims without evidences and contradicted himself far too often......I suppose illegitimate children of royal fathers and low-caste mothers will always be hateful towards their father....

Attn: sunny,Dec. 6,2001,7.57p.m.

Again Sunny,and I have told you this many times,please support all your claims with evidences.Where is the evidence for the UNTRUTHFUL noncense that "prior to 8th or 9th Century,there were no Rajputs,only Jats..." You really must stop this silliness and stop wasting my time.You are now directly contradicting Binghley,Cunningham,Tod and Ibbertson,H.A. Rose among others.STOP LYING!

attn; Sunny,Dec. 6,2001,7.57pm.
Attn; sunny,Dec. 6,2001,7;57pm.

Lets tackle the second issue first.Obviously you know nothing about the law and know not how to read the law. The Supreme court nowhere declares all Indians or all Asians to be
Caucasians in this circumscribe judgment.Indeed in India itself,there are Caucasion races,Mongolian races and Dravidian races etc, all distinct groups.And in the whole of Asia proper there are even more variations.

What the law seems to be saying here is that the pititioner in this instance,while claiming to having some "supposed or real descent from some common ancestor" to the Caucasion race is nonetheless not White since the clear judgment of the court declares that "but the term 'race' is one in which,for the practical purposes of the statute,must be applicable to a group of living persons who now possessing in common the requisite characteristics,not to groups of persons who are supposed to be or really are descended from some remote,common ancestor...." Even as to the claim of Caucasion descent on the part of the challenger, the court had its reservations as it clearly submits the terms "supposed or real descent from some common ancestor" in its judgments.Yet it did declare,with reservations,the Caucasion origin of the claimant.This in no way automatically translates into the fact that all Indians of Mongolian,Dravadian,Nepalese,races etc. are henceforth Caucasions in the eyes of the court!


Now Sunny,when you then go ahead and misquote and claim that "in 1923 the Supreme court declared that Indians,although they were Caucasions,could not be citizens...." you are making the Justices contradict themselves, since India consists of different ethnic 'races' in its fold.In short,which ever way you like to excape the issue,you were not being truthful.Next time,dont misquote.That way you will stay out of trouble.

Hi nonJat guys,

Rajputs: First prior to 8th or 9th century, there were no Rajputs, only Jats. Second, Rajputs are but Hindunized Jats and Gujjars; Mount Abu! Remember Dahiya, Bains, and Jats were the royal races of Rajasthan, not Rajputs! Moreover, the influence of the Hindu belief and religion had made the Rajput very passive people. For example, instead of fighting the Islamic invaders they gave their women to them! Wasn’t Aurangzeb’s mother a Rajput lady?! In fact, the mixed breed offspring were called Ranghars! One such half-breed was called MassaRanghar, who upon performing antics at the Harmandir Sahib, suffered decapitation at the hands of the Bhangu Jats! His proud head was paraded through town on a spear!

Caucasians: The US laws for naturalization initially written in 1790 had to be modified in the pinnacle case United States vs. Bhagat Singh Thind. Thind argued that the 1790 law used the word “Caucasian” was applicable to “high-caste” Hindus. As a result of Thind’s case the government had to replace “Caucasian” with “white persons”. Below find the courts case! Note they were easily able to shoot holes in Thinds use of the Aryan Theory:

United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind
261 U.S. 204 (1923)
MR. JUSTICE SUTHERLAND delivered the opinion of the Court. This cause is here upon a certificate from the Circuit Court of Appeals, requesting the instruction of this Court in respect of the following questions:


"1. Is a high caste Hindu of full Indian blood, born at Amrit Sar, Punjab, India, a white person within the meaning of section 2169, Revised Statutes?"
"2. Does the act of February 5, 1917 (39 Stat. L. 875, section 3) disqualify from naturalization as citizens those Hindus, now barred by that act, who had lawfully entered the United States prior to the passage of said act?"
Section 2169, Revised Statutes, provides that the provisions of the Naturalization Act "shall apply to aliens, being free white persons, and to aliens of African nativity and to persons of African descent."
If the applicant is a white person within the meaning of this section he is entitled to naturalization; otherwise not.
The conclusion that the phrase "white persons" and the word "Caucasian" are synonymous does not end the matter.
Mere ability on the part of an applicant for naturalization to establish a line of descent from a Caucasian ancestor will not ipso facto and necessarily conclude the inquiry. "Caucasian" is a conventional word of much flexibility, as a study of the literature dealing with racial questions will disclose, and while it and the words "white persons" are treated as synonymous for the purposes of that case, they are not of identical meaning — idem per idem.
In the endeavor to ascertain the meaning of the statute we must not fail to keep in mind that it does not employ the word "Caucasian" but the words "white persons," and these are words of common speech and not of scientific origin. The word "Caucasian" not only was not employed in the law but was probably wholly unfamiliar to the original framers of the statute in 1790.
But in this country, during the last half century especially, the word by common usage has acquired a popular meaning, not clearly defined to be sure, but sufficiently so to enable us to say that its popular as distinguished from its scientific application is of appreciably narrower scope. It is in the popular sense of the word, therefore, that we employ it as an aid to the construction of the statute....
They imply, as we have said, a racial test; but the term "race" is one which, for the practical purposes of the statute, must be applied to a group of living persons now possessing in common the requisite characteristics, not to groups of persons who are supposed to be or really are descended from some remote, common ancestor, but who, whether they both resemble him to a greater or less extent, have, at any rate, ceased altogether to resemble one another. It may be true that the blond Scandinavian and the brown Hindu have a common ancestor in the dim reaches of antiquity, but the average man knows perfectly well that there are unmistakable and profound differences between them today; . . .
The term "Aryan" has to do with linguistic and not at all with physical characteristics, and it would seem reasonably clear that mere resemblance in language, indicating a common linguistic root buried in remotely ancient soil, is altogether inadequate to prove common racial origin. There is, and can be, no assurance that the so-called Aryan language was not spoken by a variety of races living in proximity to one another. Our own history has witnessed the adoption of the English tongue by millions of Negroes, whose descendants can never be classified racially with the descendants of white persons notwithstanding both may speak a common root language.
What we now hold is that the words "free white persons" are words of common speech, to be interpreted in accordance with the understanding of the common man, synonymous with the word "Caucasian" only as that word is popularly understood. As so understood and used, whatever may be the speculations of the ethnologist, it does not include the body of people to whom the appellee belongs. It is a matter of familiar observation and knowledge that the physical group characteristics of the Hindus render them readily distinguishable from the various groups of persons in this country commonly recognized as white. The children of English, French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, and other European parentage, quickly merge into the mass of our population and lose the distinctive hallmarks of their European origin. On the other hand, it cannot be doubted that the children born in this country of Hindu parents would retain indefinitely the clear evidence of their ancestry. It is very far from our thought to suggest the slightest question of racial superiority or inferiority. What we suggest is merely racial difference, and it is of such character and extent that the great body of our people instinctively recognize it and reject the thought of assimilation.
It is not without significance in this connection that Congress, by the Act of February 5, 1917, c. 29, §3, 39 Stat. 874, has now excluded from admission into this country all natives of Asia within designated limits of latitude and longitude, including the whole of India. This not only constitutes conclusive evidence of the congressional attitude of opposition to Asiatic immigration generally, but is persuasive of a similar attitude toward Asiatic naturalization as well, since it is not likely that Congress would be willing to accept as citizens a class of persons whom it rejects as immigrants.

OK guys, now share with us the reason for worshipping a god’s private parts? Is it true your women rub milk on the stone phallic? Lingam!!!! Have you answered any of XXX’s earlier questions? Or even mine? If I came from such a low origin, I would probably act very similar to you!

Behave guys, or I will have to release more “dirt” from your strange and low past!

Good luck,

Hi XXX-JAT Anon. and others jats,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to my earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient history-- please do your best. I will understand IF YOU CANT.

Please prove the following:
1. Existance of a Jat Country
2. Existance of a Jat Religion
3. Existance of a Jat Archaeological Evidence
4. Existance of a Jat Alphabet
5. Existance of Jat Science
6. Existance of Jat Astronomy
7. Existance of Jat Mathematics
8. Existance of Jat Monuments
9. Existance of a world recognised jat

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--


ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited in today's day and age CONSITER THEY ARE WHITES, PIERCE THEIR BODY, HAVE DIFFICULTIES TO ACCEPCT THEY ARE GYPSIES, HIT THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDRENS, GET DRUNK AND SLEEP ON PAVEMENTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES --- and unable to prove history and have taken on other foreign and other people's religion and culture from the dawn of their history? " Best wishes.

notes:
Source>>>Bingley A.H.,"Sikhs".1970.Department of Languages,Punjab. Punjab,Patiala.

Bingley,'Sikhs',pg.130."it is almost certain that polyandry is a common practice...The Manjha Jat,in fact,has small regard for the family honour.There is undoubtly a good deal of free intercourse between married women and their brothers-in-law."

Bingley,'Sikhs',pg.4."Besides the three Aryan castes,but immesurably beneath them,there was the servile or Shudra caste,composed of captured aboriginies whose lives had been spared,and ot the progeny of marriages between Aryans of different castes and OF ARYANS AND THE WOMEN OF THE COUNTRY,all of which,by the rigid exclusiveness of caste custom came to be regarded as degraded."


Bingley,'Sikhs',pg.12. "and although the Rajput and Jat races are now entirely distinct,and intermarriage between them is impossible,there is evidence to show that Rajputs took Jatni wifes as late as the fifth century,and there is no doubt that connections were frequently formed between them,though they may not always have been dignified by the name of marriage.From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who receieved them into their Zananas as khawas or concubines;and it is more than probable that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions."

Hi XXX Dick Head Jat

So by applying your argument the Christians must be the most stupid and disgusting people on earth, because the Christians believe that:

1. Man called Moses single handed and through magic cleared the Ocean so that the Israelites can walk on the sea bed and walk along the ocean floor to the promised land. How is this possible? I mean how can one man move such vast amount of water? And not only that he put it back in its right place after the crossing. Wow what an amazing fact.

2. Christian believe that the world was created in 7 days, what in only 7 days? How is this possible?

3. Christian believe that in the beginning there was only Adam and Eve and everyone came from Adam and Eve! Surely an Incest relationship here.

4. Christian pray to statues and idols in the form of statue of Jesus, statue of the Virgin Mary, symbol of the cross!! According to jats statues and idol worshiping is disgusting.

5. Christians believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead!!! How can a dead man come back to life, must be some magic or superstitious

6. Christians believe there is heaven and hell!! Wow what an amazing fact has anyone been to these places? Where are these places?

We all know that all the above cannot be proven so the Christians must be fools and made it all up!!!

Co. Todd was a Christian, so he must have been a fool. Yet dick head jat like you owe your existence and base your history on a mad man. So what say you on this dick head jats.

Take care Dick Head jats.

Ref; Rajput your comments of Dec. 6,2001,6;59a.m.

Lets not be too hard on XXX and Sunny,although what you have written is absolutely truthful,although none too subtle! A word of advise,Rajput;writing more tactfully usually diffuses animosity but brings across the same points nonetheless;however, now that the cat is out of the hat, let me reiterate;

Indeed, you are correct in saying Rajput, that the children of an Aryan Lord and his mistress or concubine in medeieval India were called Bastards,and they were most certainly 'half-breeds' and outcastes.Hence the contemptious term Shudra who is considered as "immesurably below" the twice born castes(as per Bingley,pg.5).The term Shudra referes to aboroginals and to 'half-breeds' and uncultured nomadic tribes.Bingley confirms for us that many Jat clans came about as a result of unions between Jatni concubines and their Rajput Lords,(as per Bingley pg.12-13,"Sikhs").Ofcourse these unions were never dignified by marriages.(as per Bingley,pg.12)

As far as part A of your posting is concerned,Jat children of polyandryac homes NEVER find out who their real father is,at least not in the old days. The 'main' father, or elder brother,as it were,is called 'father' by all the children,regardless.So in that sence,the arrangement is not strictly fraternal polyandry but the term 'partial fraternal polyandary' might be more fitting.The younger brother,if he decides to remain unmarried,will eventually 'adopt' one or two of the children from the common litter.The pecular thing however, is that both brothers never knew ,in the old days, who's children belonged to whome .Ofcourse today,with new technology they can go to the hospital and find out with a simple test,but in the old days this was impossible to do.At the expense of being untactful myself,these children of polyandryac arrangements can properly also be termed as Bastards.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.....

Hi Anti-JAT Anon. and others,

Please take time to respond to my earlier question and I look forward to hearing your response.

By the way, you guys still did not respond to Sunny's earlier posts concerning your COLORFUL(!)ancient literature-- please do your best. I will understand.

--IN MY COUNTRY WE SAY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES MUST NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS!--

ONCE AGAIN:
"Do the people you cited still worship in today's day and age ELEPHANTS, MULTI-ARM WOMEN, RATS,SOMEONE'S
PRIVATE PART--- and were ruled from the dawn of their history by the foreigners? " Best wishes.

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.

.A If a younger Jat brother is allowed to have intercourse with his older brother's wife,then who is the older brother between XXX and Sunny Singh?And how do Jat children ever know who their real father is?Do they ever find out?

.B Someone quoted Bingley saying that many Jat clan names came about because Rajput's took Jatnis as concubines in the old days.Well in England we simply call products of such unions BASTARDS.

that means jattis can swallow like no one else

It must be clearly understood that although the 'Mexican-Hindu' culture might be disintegrating,their gene pool is not!The original 380 to 500 or so marriages between Sikhs and Mexican women in the early part of the 20th century were consummated with children in most cases.Now these children in turn will grow up and produce their own offspring regardless of whether they have a Mexican-Hindu culture left or not.For example,the Mexican-Hindu, Dan Dhillon's children will carry on his father's name and so will his grand-children and so on...

In the same way Jats and Chamars etc. still mantain the clan names of Rajputs though intermarriages between Rajputs were banned after approximately the fifth century A.D..This partly accounts for why Jats and Chamars have many names in common. A.H. Bingley says in "Sikhs"(pg.12),"And although the Rajput and Jat races are now entirely distinct,and intermarriage between them is impossible,there is evidence to show that Rajputs took Jatni wifes as late as the fifth century,and there is no doubt that connections were frequently formed between them,though they may not always have been dignified by the name of marriage.From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who received them into their Zananas as Khawas or concubines;and it is more than probable that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gurmatdiscussions/messages/3050 ref. Story of early Sikhs

Notice how Sunny plagirizes and takes words and sentences out of context:

He wrote in his latest article and I quote him,"Another factor working against the immigrants was that in 1923 the Supreme court declared that Indians,although they were Caucasians could not be citizens because they were not considered White in the popular sence of the word." I knew immediately that Sunny was lying and or misquoteing because the U.S. Supreme Court NEVER makes a sweeping judgment on any issue.Supreme Court decisions are always limited and specific to the issue at hand.

The following is the actual and direct quote from the above web link, from which Sunny probably plagirized and misquoted:

"In 1923,a case brought by a Sikh U.S. citizen to the U.S. Supreme Court produced a ruling which found that,although the Sikhs were Caucasian,they were not considered 'White Persons' and were thus ineligible for citizenship and land ownership." Now this makes more sence! Notice that the Gypsies are also considered as Caucasions(ref.probert dictionary).The Gypsie,Jat,Mexican,etc. are all considered as non-White Caucasian races! Note that the Jews, on the other hand ,are considered as White Caucasians!

http://www.lib.ucdavis.edu/punjab/mexhindu.html

Isabel singh Garcia;

"...The East-Indian of today would like to forget that we exist,because they are ashamed that their people came to this country and found the Mexican Women very compatible with them.so lets say between 1916 and 1950 we were born...The Hindu of yesterday paved the road and built a brick wall for our East Indian population of today.Our mothers allowed them to bring their brothers and sisters and nephews in the 1950s and helped to adjust to our way of life...."

SOURCE>>A.H. Bingley,"Sikhs',1970.Punjab,Patiala.


A.H. Bingly(p.g. 12) "Although the Rajput and Jat races are now entirely distinct,and intermarriage between them is impossible,there is evidence to show that Rajputs took Jatni wifes as late as the fifth Century,and there is no doubt that connections were frequently formed between them,though they may not always have been dignified by the name of marriage.From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who received them into their 'Zananas' as 'Khawa's' or concubines;and it is more than probable that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions....."

Attn:sunny,Dec 5,2001,4.55

Friend,again you are being less than truthful!

You say, "I think the Mayor of El Centro,California,Dan Dhillon,is one of the last remnants of this('Mexican-Hindu') stock..." Well, dont just think,give us full evidences with corresponding refrences for this silly claim.I doubt very much that the good Mayor,Mr.Dhillon of El Centro,is the last 'Mexican-Hindu' alive in California.Sunny,you seem like the kind that will wish to 'kill off' his own kin, if your personal insecurities lead you to believe that they have become an embarresment to you,judging from this your above statement!Certainly, Mr. Dhillon is Jat.I hope these wonderful 'Mexican-hindu-Jats' continue to prosper and multiply.

Also,you say, "in 1923 the U.S. Supreme court decided that Indians,although they were Caucasians,could not be citizens because they were not considered White in the popular sence of the word...."

Could you please educate us as to where in the annals of U.S. Supreme Court judicature,the Supreme justices ever mantained that Indians were Caucasions!

Folks,this is what happens when less than truthful people make up stories as they go.There are other inconsistencies in his writeup but this will suffice!

Again,I counsel you to be truthful in all your claims.This is not a backward OBC village,where people believe a woman to have the ability to singlehandedly restrain a bull with her foot without tilting her waterjar,etc...Above all,you must provide supporting evidences for all your statements from reliable sources only.As or right now,you have done neither.

Regards.....

Hi nonJats guys, here is the history of Jats in USA:

According to Dhillon the initial reason for Jat, particularly Jat Sikhs, to migrate to Western countries was due to them working for the British as soldiers and policemen.

1899 – “Sikhs Allowed to Land in San Francisco

The four Sikhs who arrived on the Nippon Maru the other day were permitted yesterday to land by the immigration officials. The quartet formed the most picturesque group that has been seen on the Pacific Mall dock for many a day. One of them, Bakkshlled [sic] Singh, speaks English with fluency, the others just a little. They are all fine-looking men, Bakkshlled Singh in particular being a marvel of physical beauty. He stands 6 feet 2 inches and is built in proportion. His companions-Bood [sic] Singh, Variam [sic] Singh and Sohava Singh-are not quite so big. All of them have been soldiers and policemen in China. They were in the Royal Artillery, and the tall one with the unpronounceable name was a police sergeant in Hong Kong prior to coming to this country. They hope to make their fortunes here and return to their homes in the Lahore district, which they left some twenty years ago.”
--San Francisco Chronicle April 6, 1899, p.10

Agile Wrestlers

The Hindus (Jats) were most known for their prowess and agility in wrestling, back in the days when wrestling was "real honest-to-goodness wrestling," in Bill Wootton's words.
They would hold wrestling bouts in Rosenberg Hall, about 11th and Exchange.
"They were light-heavyweight champions," Wootton said. "They used scientific holds and used their science and ability to get in and out of the holds."
Although many immigrant groups who came to the United States came because they would work for cheap wages, that was not true of the Hindus.
Helmer Lindstrom of 4374 Cedar, remembers that the Hindus "never undercut wages" - they would never agree to work for less than the other employees. : The Daily Astorian. Astoria, Oregon Centennial,
1873-1973 Edition. April 26, 1973: 9B

The Rapid Success of the Jat Sikhs

Jats became successful rather quickly as they were known as India’s most laborous farmers, see Bingley, Barstow, etc.

“Diwan Singh immigrated to America in 1906 and by the 1940s, farmed large tracts of farm land in Arizona. Arizona has many large cotton farms. But many of the farmers started on a small scale. Diwan Singh was one of the more colorful pioneers. Born in India, he immigrated to America in 1906. Singh was a common laborer when he drifted into Casa Grande in 1924. He wanted to farm but was penniless. The only land he could get had hard, alkali soil. But with a horse and a mule he plowed 80 acres and planted cotton. Singh did well. In 1932 he was able to buy the first Caterpillar tractor in the Casa Grande area. By the 1940s he was farming 9,000 acres of land." (Arizona's Heritage (high school textbook), 1983.)

Repercussions to the Rapid Success of Jats Sikhs:

It is estimated that 7348 Asian Indians migrated to the United States and Canada between 1899 & 1920.
The Punjab province in India was a great source of Asian Indian immigration to the United States and Canada. The composition of the immigrants from 1900 to 1917 included 85% Sikhs, 13% Muslim and 2% Hindu, though almost all that arrived were termed "Hindus," even if the label was inappropriately applied. Many immigrants were part of the British Indian Army, and arrived in the U.S. looking for railroad, lumber or agricultural jobs. Those that became migrant laborers in the Sacramento Valley were known as "Hindu crews." They encountered resistance, both in Canada and the United States. In addition to being viewed as eccentric dressers they were also confronted by legal oppositions. Canada curtailed immigration in 1909. The immigration Act of 1917 dictated that Indian Laborers were no longer able to enter the United States; this native country existed in the "barred zone" identified in the Act.
The California Board of Control submitted a report to Governor Stephens in 1920 titled California and the Orientals: Japanese, Chinese and Hindus. It indicated that since 1910, the number of Asian Indians in the United States had increased by 33.5%. The California Board of Control perceived these immigrants as an economic threat, or competition for native farmers. They were referred to as "a group of laborers becoming landowners and threatening the monopoly of the majority group."
Source: Leonard, LaBrack, Chakravorti, Melendy

Mexican Hindus:

Due to new laws Jat men married Mexican women in order to become land-owners. These unions were a way to allow other relative to enter the US and divorces were common amongst Mexican Hindus. Consequently the children of the offspring were not accepted by either Mexican or Hindus, thus developed their own community. The minute races is dying out. Incidentally, I think the Mayor of El Centro California, Dave Dhillon, is one of the last remnants of this stock.

Here is an article written about Mexican Hindus. Note Garcia’s comment “Once we are gone, we are gone…Our race will be dead.”:


In Yuba City, traces remain of fading Mexican-Hindu culture

By Bill Lindelof Bee Staff Writer
Normally bubbly and talkative, Isabel Singh Garcia's voice trailed off when she spoke of her ethnic group -- the offspring of Yuba City farmers from India and Mexico who married long ago.
"Once we are gone, we are gone," said Garcia, 56. "Our race will be a dead race."
She referred to a group known as "Mexican-Hindus," something of a misnomer for the children of Mexican women and Sikh, Muslim and Hindu men, mostly from the Punjab area of India. About 500 such marriages took place in the early part of this century in California, the result of romance in a new land and the laws of the time.
The long-ago marriages were celebrated Saturday at the Yuba City Old-Timers dance, begun 17 years to preserve memories of the pairings of Spanish-speaking mothers and mostly Punjabi-speaking fathers.
Only a relative handful of the children, including Garcia, were on hand. The 50 or so Mexican-Hindus now living in the Yuba City area are overshadowed by the 8,000 all-Indian, more recent arrivals.
And despite their Sikh heritage, the men do not wear the traditional turbans and the women do not wear their traditional flowing garments.
When their fathers came to the United States starting about 1906, the men cut their hair even though, for Sikhs, uncut hair under a turban was an important part of their religious upbringing.
Bruce LaBrack, a professor at the University of the Pacific in Stockton who has studied the original immigrants and their descendants, remembers interviewing one Indian man who came to America:
"Well, I came thousands of miles," he quoted the old man saying. "I walked from Panama up to the U.S. border. If I came across wearing a turban and beard I would get arrested. I would die for my faith, but I didn't want to be deported for it."
Yuba City, the Imperial Valley and Fresno were the main agricultural destinations for Sikh farmers. The Sikh, Muslim and Hindu men left to escape poverty and for other reasons.
In India, the first son inherited all family property so other male siblings often left to gain their own land. Also, said LaBrack, the time of immigration was the height of oppressive colonial control by England over India.
But once they got to the United States, they also experienced setbacks. By 1917, the United States would not allow any more immigration, said LaBrack. Even married Punjabi men could not bring their wives to the United States.
Another factor working against the immigrants was that in 1923, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that Indians, although they were Caucasians, could not be citizens because they were not considered white in the popular sense of the word. And, under California law at the time, non- citizens could not own land.
The men married women of Mexican descent, many of whom were American citizens and capable of owning property.
They married in the California Church. Their children were raised Catholic, but the Punjabi men retained their religion.
According to anthropologist Karen Leonard of the University of California, Irvine, children spoke to their mothers in Spanish. Leonard, who is traveling in India, has written that Punjabi fathers did not have the time to teach their children their religion.
The children met prejudice from Anglos and Mexicans, who called them "dirty Hindus." Leonard said the children were called. "Mexican-Hindus" "half and halves," or, like their fathers, "Hindus," an incorrect but common name for all people from India.
Isabel Singh Garcia said that the Mexican-Hindu children had their own little community during her childhood.
"The Mexicans kind of disowned the Mexican women who married Hindus," she said. "Our social life was to a great extent within our own race of people."
The marriage of her parents, Memel Singh and Genobeba Loya, was a good one, she said. Her father and her mother have been dead for more than 30 years, but she clearly remembers them and her Sikh uncles.
Growing up on a peach orchard with her parents and sisters provided a mixing of cultures. They attended Catholic services and had regular visits to the Sikh temple in Stockton.
"The Mexicans and the Hindu were compatible," she said. "They had a lot in common. The Mexicans had tortillas. The Hindus had rotis, a bread that is like a tortilla."
Even today, Rasul's El Ranchero restaurant in Yuba City serves a mixed menu that appeals to both cultures. Owner Ali Rasul, whose father was Muslim and mother from Sonora, Mexico, serves enchiladas along with roti, chicken curry and something called the "Hindu pizza."
"We wanted to make something that appeals to both," said Rasul's wife, Rachel. "It has Mexican ingredients, but we put them on a roti. We call it a Hindu pizza."
A smaller number of Indian men married black, American Indian or white women. G. Dave Teja's mother was a white woman from Arkansas and his father came to the United States in 1921 from Jalandhar in India.
His parents were married in Arkansas, avoiding the laws at that time prohibiting marriages between whites and Indians in California. The couple's first 10 acres were in his mother's name until 1947, when his father became one of the first Indians to get a citizenship, Teja said.
His mother died in 1989, after 58 years of marriage. His father died last year at the age of 93. Teja said there are one or two old-timers of his father's generation still alive in the Yuba City area.
Teja, the former Sutter County district attorney who prosecuted mass murderer Juan Corona, said he pays dues to the Sikh temple to remain close to his heritage.
"I'm an American." he said. "But I shared a heritage with these (Indian) people. I couldn't deny it if I had wanted to."
For more information about Mexican-Hindu heritage, refer to "The Mexican-Hindu Connection: In a Search for their Roots, Descendants Discover a Moving Tale of Loneliness and Racism", by Mark I. Pinsky. Los Angeles Times, December 21, 1987, pt. V, p. 9-12.

Good luck!

Ref;Dec5,2001,3.12pm.,

AMMENDMENT:
I wrote,"we all know that in two generations, a population of 200 can usually compound to 10000"

Correct should be,
"We all know that in two generations,a population of 2000 can usually compound to 10000." (ref;black and asian Immigration in britain and Canada,cambridge university press)

Example ofpopulation increase: simple math:

generation (1):start with 500 families.They have an average of 5 kids.(In the old days people tended to have more children)total population becomes 2500.

generation (2):start with 2500 families.They have an average of 3 kids.(family planning etc.) total population becomes 7500 families!!

Attn; Sunny,Dec.5,2001,12.39pm.,

Can you please support your statement (with full sources) that these 'Mexican-Hindus' "were rarely accepted back in Jat fold".I dont mean to belittle,but I am not ready to just take your word for it.Obviously, you will attempt to lie to hide this embarresing circumstance!Also I notice that your facts are usually inaccurate.There were 380 of these families originally ,not 200 as you claim without supporting evidences.Please be careful with your claims.This is not village India.

"..It was a significant community,380 couples,but in terms of its biethnic composition and its centrality in the lives of the mostly Jat Sikh immigrants...(K. Leonard.)"

The census of 380 'mexican-Hindu' couples was taken in 1913, and by 1945 this 'Mexican-Hindu' population had grown to a few thousands!(k.Leonard,'pioneer Voices from california')We all know that in two generations a population of say 200 can usually compound to 10 000 or more!(ref.Black and Asian Immigrants in Britain and Canada:Cambridge University press,Richard B.)

I will get into more detail later on this issue!

Hi nonJat Guys,

Please share with us how the Brahman rulers were able to take the Sindh crown from the Jats! Also, please share the reasons for Dahir to marry his own sister?

The Mexican Hindus are not only confined to Jats! I have met Brahman Mexicans and Muslim Mexicans. Rest assured in most cases these Mexican Hindus were rarely accepted back in Jat fold, and only number around 200. However, on a related note it is not rare to see Brahman or other Hindu women married outside their community in the states. Good luck!

A.H. Bingley,"Sikhs"

Bingley on fraternal polyandry among Jats:


Bingley writes in p.g.130 of his book "Sikhs","It is almost certain that polyandry is a common practice.....The Manjha Jat,in fact,has small regard for the family honour.There is undoubtedly a good deal of free intercourse between married women and their brothers-in-law."

Very shortly, I will be writing about early Sikh migrants to Canada and California, and the great difficulties and brutal discriminations that they faced in these countries.These early Sikhs were almost all menial workers,no better than slave labour;the majority were Jats....Also,did you guys know that most early Sikh migrants to California were Jats and many married Hispanic women because these poor migrants were mostly single when they arrived and the American laws existing at that time prohibited them from bringing in Sikh brides?!.... So odds are that many second or third generation California Jats have Mexican blood in them!!(ref.'Pioneer voices from California',Karen Leonard).I would like to hear from these 'Mexican-Hindus', as they are generally called even today in California!!Details on these issues and others will be provided later. In the meanwhile,I have still more quotes from A.H. Bingley and others to furnish.......

Best wishes.

For those of you who do not know,fraternal polyandry is the sharing of one wife between two or more brothers.

In the case of Jats,it is usually the younger brother who shares his elder brother's wife:

.(refer to posting Dec. 4,2001,11.13pm for details)

SOURCE>>http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html

On the same track as my last post;

"...The line of rulership before Islam runs thus;Siharus,Sahasi 2,Chach,Dahir.The first two were Buddhist Rajputs and the last two were Hindu brahmins.The new Brahmin rulers were extremely hostile towards the Buddhists who were in substantial numbers in Sindh at that time and they had ruthlessly suppressed the Jats and meds who formed the bulk of the peasantry.Humiliating conditions were imposed on the Jats depriving them of many civil rights..... Chach enjoined upon the Jats
and Lohanas not to carry swords,avoid velvet or silken colour,ride horses without saddles and walk about bare-headed and bare footed."

W. Crooke in his work,'Castes of North Western provinces' pg.33 Vol.3,has mentioned that "in the old days of Rajput ascendancy the Rajputs would not allow the Jats or any other low castes,to cover their head with a turban,nor to bear any red clothes,nor to put a crown(Muhar)on the heads of their bridegrooms or a jewel(nath) in the women's nose,due to their high social position."

SOURCE>>"Tribal groups of Northern India.",C.Padhan,Ely house,London,Oxford University press,1966.

Jats,did you know this about your race:

"Access to brother's wife"(pg.87)
"In Jat families,younger unmarried brothers are ALLOWED ACCESS TO THEIR ELDER BROTHER'S WIFE!!(exclamation marks not author's)In some cases the elder unmarried brother may have access to his younger brother's wife,though such cases are not so common as the former.In many cases,access is only allowed if the unmarried brother is living with the married one,works with him,and gives his share of the property to the married brother's family.The unmarried brother,if he stays unmarried,may finally adopt one of the sons of the married brother with whom he has been living for a long time,and bequeth his property to him.Or he may name the married brother as inheritor of his property.It is considerable economic gain for a married brother if an unmarried brother comes and lives with him and gives him his share and income from the family property.This is one of the rerason why married brothers seldom object to such SEXUAL ACCESS TO THEIR WIFES.In some cases they even ask their wifes to try to gain favours of their unmarried brothers so that they can come and live with the family.

Thus the Jats show traits of fraternal polyandry;though it is limited to the privilage of sexual access.Wifes are not shared among the married brothers,nor are they called the wifes of the unmarried brothers.The husband remains the legal father of the children irrespective of the biological paternity.Father's brothers are distinguished terminologically,depending whether they are older or younger than the father.The term 'father' is not used of anyone except the legal father.Therefore the term 'polyandry' cannot strictly be applied to the Jat way of life."

YUKS!!It is sickening............

A.H. Bingley writes in pg.4-6 of 'Sikhs',

"Thus the Aryans and their retainers,by a process of natural selection resolved themselves into four classes:

(1)the Brahman or priestly caste composed of the rishis,their descendants and disciples,to which was entrusted the expounding of the Vedas and the conduct of religious ceremonies.

(2)The kshatriyas,Rajput or governing and military caste,composed of the Maharajas and their warrior kinsmen and companions,whose duty it was to rule,fight,administer justice,and protect the community in general.It is now represented by the Rajput and khatri.

(3)The Vaisiyas,or trading and agricultural caste which assisted by the conquered aboroginies,tilled the land,raised cattle,and manufactured the arms,impliments,and household utensils,required by the Aryan commonwealth.It is now represented by the bania.

(4)Besides the three Aryan castes,but immeasurably beneath them,there was the servile or Shudra caste,composed of captured aboriginies whose lives had been spared,and of the progeny of marriages between Aryans of different castes and of ARYANS AND THE WOMEN OF THE COUNTRY,ALL OF WHICH,BY THE RIGID EXCLUSIVENESS OF CASTE CUSTOM CAME TO BE REGARDED AS DEGRADED." ...NOTE:With refrence to this point,I like to refer to Bingley on page 12 of his book ;"From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who recived them into their Zananas as Khawas or concubines;and it is more than likely that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions."

A.H. Bingley writes in pg.124 of his book 'Sikhs',"As in most agricultural communities,education among the Jat Sikhs is in a backward condition,though a marked improvement in this respect has been noticable within the last ten years.The Khatri Sikh,on the other hand,is as a rule quick and well-educated,and his intelligence compares very favourably with that of the slow and rather thick-headed Jat."

Hi XXX Dick Head Jat

So by applying your argument the Christians must be the most stupid and disgusting people on earth, because the Christians believe that:

1. Man called Moses single handed and through magic cleared the Ocean so that the Israelites can walk on the sea bed and walk along the ocean floor to the promised land. How is this possible? I mean how can one man move such vast amount of water? And not only that he put it back in its right place after the crossing. Wow what an amazing fact.

2. Christian believe that the world was created in 7 days, what in only 7 days? How is this possible?

3. Christian believe that in the beginning there was only Adam and Eve and everyone came from Adam and Eve! Surely an Incest relationship here.

4. Christian pray to statues and idols in the form of statue of Jesus, statue of the Virgin Mary, symbol of the cross!! According to jats statues and idol worshiping is disgusting.

5. Christians believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead!!! How can a dead man come back to life, must be some magic or superstitious

6. Christians believe there is heaven and hell!! Wow what an amazing fact has anyone been to these places? Where are these places?

We all know that all the above cannot be proven so the Christians must be fools and made it all up!!!

Co. Todd was a Christian, so he must have been a fool. Yet dick head jat like you owe your existence and base your history on a mad man. So what say you on this dick head jats.

Take care Dick Head jats.

I thought I might give dictionary definitions of some words that Bingly uses with regard to Jats namely, 'concubines' and 'clod'.

source>>>'The Oxford Dictionary',edited by Katherin Barber,Oxford University Press,2000 ed.:

definitions:

CONCUBINE:archaic.(1)a woman living in a harem.(2)a kept mistress.

For example Bingly says in his book 'Sikhs',
"From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who received them into their 'zananas' as 'Khawas' or concubines....."

CLOD1)a lump of earth,clay,etc.(2)informal,a silly or foolish person.

Bingly writes in 'Sikhs',"Get around a Pathan by coaxing,but heave a clod at a Hindki"

Hi Anti-JAT Anon.

Do the people you cited still worship in today's day and age ELEPHANTS, MULTI-ARM WOMEN, RATS,SOMEONE'S PRIVATE PART--- and were ruled from the dawn of their history by the foreigners? Best wishes.

Source>>> A.H Bingley,'Sikhs'.(see previous post for a full bibliography.)

The following are quotes from Bingley's book,'Sikhs',pg.13-16.

Bingley writes,"But though the traditions of the Panjabi Jat in almost all cases refer to a Rajput origin,and emigration to the Panjab from the Deccan or Central India,others claim direct descent from the Scythian adventurers who forced their way into India from the Kandahar Valley.Thus the Man,Heer and Bhular gotras of the Central Panjab sometimes call themselves 'Shib Gotras',because they profess to be descended from the Jatta or matted hair of Shiva,in contradiction to the 'Kasab Gotras' WHO ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF RAJPUTS BY JAT WOMEN,or Rajputs who have lost grade by the pracrice of 'Karao' or widow-marriage."

"We know little or nothing of the ancient history of the Jats.As early as the 7th century the Jats of Scinde were ruled over by a Brahmin dynasty,and by the 11th Century they had spread into the Panjab proper.We first hear of them in the annals of Muhammadan historians......Many Jat tribes must have been taken away as captives to Ghazni,which would account for the traditional connection with that place which is claimed by so many of the clans.The growing power of the Jats was crippled by this disaster that we hear NOTHING MORE of them,or of their military exploits,until 1658,when they reappeared as valuable allies of Aurangzeb in the troubled times that followed the deposition of Shah Jahan."

"West of the Indus and the Ravi the Jats became Musalmans,AND BEING A CONQUERED PEOPLE,of no political importance,were looked down upon by the Pathans,Mughals,and Moslems of Rajput descent,who seized their lands,and thus drove them to seek a living as nomads wandering with their herds over the grazing-grounds of the Western plains of the Panjab.To this day,in Scinde and the Doab of the Indus and Sutlej,'Jat' is the usual term for a grazier or herdsman,and is applied to Jats proper,degraded Rajputs and mongrels......The proverbs of the Pathans and Baluchis are full of contemptuos references to the 'Jats' or'Hindkis' as they are perhaps more commonly called.'The Jat is such a fool that only god can take care of him'. 'Get around a Pathan by coaxing,but heave a clod at a Hindki.'IN SHORT THE MUHAMMADAN JAT OF THE INDUS VALLEY AND SALT RANGE IS LOOKED DOWN UPON AS A MEMBER OF AN INFERIOR RACE,AND THE POSITION HE THERE OCCUPIES IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH IS HELD BY HIS SIKH AND HINDU BRETHEN OF THE CENTRAL AND EASTERN PANJAB...."

Hi XXX

You sound like a very cleaver jat, so even for a dick head like you must be able to provide a straight forward answers to the following:

The Christians believed that Moses cleared the Ocean so that the the Isralites can walk on the sea bed and walk along the ocean floor to the promised land.

Also the Christian bvelieve that the world was created in 7 days, what 7 days only?

How can this be possible? The Christians must be fools and made it all up!!!

So like to have your comments on this topic. Try your best.

And also you jats hate statue and idol worshipers - well you must hate the Christians as they worship Jesus Status and the Virgin Mary?

Again what say you on this dick head.

Take care Dick Head.

SOURCE>>>A.H. Bingley,"The Sikhs".(see my last post for a full bibliography.)

Every coin has two sides.In the past,Jats on this net have liberally and proudly quoted from Bingley's book ,'Sikhs', only those sections that were flattering to their point of view. .Here is the rest of their history as narrated by Bingley.:

On page 12-13 of his book,'Sikhs',Bingley writes this;"...From the earliest times the beauty and strength of the Jat and Gujar women won the admiration of the Rajput princes,who received them into their 'ZANANAS' as 'KHAWAS' or concubines;and it is more than probable that many Jat clans are descended from the offspring of such unions. "It is strange that many Jat tribes of this lineage concur in the same ridiculous story that their ancestress was a beautiful Jatni who,while going along with a waterpot on her head,stopped a runaway buffalo by pressing her foot on the rope tide to its neck,and did so without spilling the water.This feat of strength so pleased a Rajput chieftain who was looking on,that he immediately placed her in his 'ZANANA',and thus a new got or family sprang from the connexionn."

more to come......

Regards.

Hi Anon.,

You do not have to tell me about my forefathers. I know my forefathers' colorful history of 2500 years ----that is second to none.

Please do not apply the same yardstick the one you use to measure your ancestors' history-- who believed in DONKEYS OR MONKEYS flying and monkeys constructing a bridge between your motherland and Sri Lanka to retrieve a stolen woman! Take care.

SOURCE>>>Bingley,A.H.,"Sikhs",1970.Department of Languages,Punjab:Reproduced by director,Languages Department,Punjab,Deputy controller,Printing and Stationary Department,Punjab,Patiala.

A.H. Bingley,in his book 'Sikhs' talks briefly about the origin of the Jats .In chapter 1,'History and Origin' he links them to the European Romany.

Quote from Bingley pg.B2;

"Perhaps no question connected with Indian ethnology has been more frequently discussed than that of the origins of the Jats.According to some authorities they are Aryans,of the same stock as the Rajputs,and the name of their race is simply the modern Hindi for Yadu,the title of the famous Kshatriya clan to which the demi-god Krishna belonged.Others mantain that they are Indo-Scythians,identify them with the Getae of the classical geographers,AND ASSERT THAT THEY ARE OF THE SAME RACE AS THE MAGYARS AND GYPSIES OF EASTERN EUROPE......"

Attn; XXX,Dec. 4.1.40pm,ref. your comments,

Friend,you are a Jat and you don't even know who you are!? Whether a Jat is called a Jat with a hard T or soft T is based only on differing accents.They are all still Jats from the Shudra caste.O'Brien is here only talking about the differeing accents.Be proud of who you are and dont be silly!

Also,I have noticed that the so-called Jats who have taken up peasantry(especially in Punjab) look down upon their less successful brethen(everywhere else in India), the nomadic Jats, who are mainly grazers.It is a fact that Jats outside of Punjab are looked down upon by other castes!.Hard T or soft T,all you Jats are Jats,as it were!

Hi Anti-Jat Guys,

Jats, Jatts, Jaets, Massagetae, Getae, Juts, etc. mean that their forefathers were great ancient warriors whose presence was felt around the globe!

REMEMBER Shakespeare ONCE SAID THAT A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME WILL STILL BE A ROSE! Best wishes to all.

I always knew it! JATT is spelled with a hard T. Thanks for conforming this fact Anonymous. we JATTs are much better than Jats. We have a hard spelled T.

"T" rocks!!

Hi folks, why not look at the origins of Gypsies by those very authors you just quoted; Cunningham, Barstow, Ibbetson, etc? Also as per Barstow, weren't the Mirasi, Brahman, and Nai, the Lagis or servants of the Jats! Particularly during marriage rites! We all know Mirasi are gypsy like, and Nais are also known to migrate, no wonder the three stick together and wander about serving Jats! Regards,

Source>>>H.A. Rose,"Castes and Tribes..."(see previous post for full bibliography.)

On page 866-867 vol.2, Rose writes,"The Jat is in every respect the most important of the Punjabi peoples....And from an economical point of view he is the husbandman,the peasant,the revenue-payer par excellence of the province...The Jat of all the Punjabi races is the most impatient of tribal or communal control,and the one who asserts the freedom of the individual most strongly....He is independent and self-willed;but he is reasonably peaceably inclined if left alone,and not difficult to manage.He is usually content to cultivate his fields and pay his revenue in peace and quietness if people will let him do so;though when he does go wrong he takes to anything from gambling to murder,with perhaps a preference for stealing other people's wifes and cattle.As usual, proverbial wisdom of the villages describes him very fairly,though perhaps somewhat too severely :'The soil,fodder,clothes,hemp,grass fiber,and silk,these six are best beaten;and the seventh is the Jat.' "

"...The Jat is ofcourse FAR BELOW the Rajput....The Jat father is made to say ,in the rhyming proverbs of the country side--'come my daughter and be married;if this husband dies,there are plenty more.' The Bania with his sacred thread his strict Hinduism,and his twice-born standing,looks down on the Jat as a Shudra....Indeed the word Jat is the Punjabi term for grazier or herdsman;though Mr.E.O'Brien says that in Jatki,Jat,the cultivator is spelled with a hard t and Jat the herdsman or camel grazer with a soft t....."

SOURCE>> Virbhadra Singh,"Rajputs of Saurashtra",South Asia Books,2000 ed.

It is common knowledge that a Jat can never attain the status of Rajput.The degradation of a Rajput to a lowly Jat or Chamar is always possible,but never the other way round.

The above mentioned writer quotes Baden and powell who state unequivocally that "Although a Rajput might sink to be a Jat by marrying a widow,or by taking to agriculture under certain circumstances,the difference between the customs of the two 'races' and the course of their histories show that the progenitors of the pure Rajput clans were in India before the Jats;and that the two 'races' were originally distinct.Throughout history the Jats have appeared perfectly distinct from the Hindu Rajputs.They have often been in conflict with them;and there ARE NO INSTANCES OF A MAN BORN A JAT RAISING HIMSELF TO RAJPUT CASTE....."

We all know that this is the majority opinion,including that of Cunningham ,Bingley and even Ibbertson!!.

SOURCE>>>
"A glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West frontier Province," Based on the Census report for the Punjab,1883 by Sir Denzil Ibbetson and the Census Report for the Punjab 1892 by the Hon. Mr. E.D. Maclagan and compiled by H.A. Rose.
Vol 2 A-K, First Edition,1911.

It is common knowledge that Jats and Chamars have many caste names in common.This, together with their almost identical physical appearance in the Punjab,their Shudra caste status,and similar social standing in Gujerat and Rajastan is proof conclusive of similar racial origins...

H.A. Rose writes in pg.150 of his book,"The gots or sections of the Chamars are very numerous,and some of them are large.The principle gots of the Chamars are Chauhan and Bhatti(numerous in the Central and eastern districts,especially Ambala)and Badhan,Bains,Ghameri,Gill,Heer,Jal,Kathana,Mahmi,Phundwal and Sindhu.Of these gots all but the Kathana are found in the Jullundur division.The Chamars are by religion Hindus or Sikhs...."

H.A. Rose has highlighted only the "principle gots" of the Chamars.There are many other Chamar names that correspond to Jat ones...

Regards.

P.S. For any counter arguments,please furnish full evidences with full bibliographies and exact sources.Unvarifiable claims will be considered as silly noncense.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_1.doc

The above link is a portion of a book endorsed by the great Professor De Goerge with assistance from Paul Battilard and other Britishers like Col. Sleeman,General Walter Scott,Col.Dunsterville etc.These men were all experts in Gypsy origins:

Quote:
"The mediaeval Gypsies show family resemblances,physical and moral,ethnological and linguistic,with the modern Jats;a highly important race,which extends from the mouth of the Indus to the head of the great valley,thence ramifying over Turkistan and the far north...."

I do recomend a full and detailed read of the entire web link, for those of you who wish to attain a profound understanding of Gypsy/Jat origins.

Best Wishes and Happy Reading.

Observe the anti-social behaviour of many young Jats in Western Countries today.Because they suffer from low-self esteem,discrimination from the White population,alcohol abuse and other social and emmotional problems, these deviant Jat youths take comfort in Gangs,violence and thievery.I am inclined to conclude that the majority of violent crime involving drugs,prostitution and so forth in the Indo-American community is commited by Jats.:
http://punjabi.net/talk/messages/1/15330.html?1007053899

We saw in the last post how drug dealing,prostitution and other criminal activities are a way of life for Gypsies in America.Also gypsy culture encourages violence.Many a Gypsy has been murdered by a fellow Rom over issues of blood feuds,drug deals gone bad,bride price and other vendettas.A similar situation exists within the culture of Jats in North America.I am inclined to believe that the Shudras are naturally geared towards anti-social activities,that is one of the main reasons why they were outcastes in India.In short,it is in the blood!They will never change their outcaste ways.In America,these Shudras engage in the same anti-social behaviours;

Quotes;(refer to web link in my last post)

"The murder of self-admitted drug dealer Bindy Johal,at the Palladin night Club over six months ago is not yet solved...At least six Indo-Canadians connected with the heroine and cocaine trade have been killed or seriously wounded in the last 12 months....Indo-Canadian groups as well as those with roots in Trinidad and Guyana are used to conduct smaller-level but extensive cocaine and heroine businesses here."

"To many young people in the immmmigrant community who feel their Canadian society does not give them enough to succeed,joining gangsters is an exercise in building self-esteem."

"Why do you think Bindy Johal was a hero to many Indo-Canadians?...He stood up to his school principals,he beat up those who called him racial names and he was making alot of money even though he was only in his mid-twenties.He drove fancy cars,he had girls falling all over him."

SOURCE>> John Mclaughlin,"Gypsy Lifestyles."

source>>http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/jun/24us4.htm

It is very safe to conclude that most of the so-called "Indo-American" organized crime in North-America is conducted by the Jats..(See above web link for refrence.Notice the almost total physical resemblence of the handcuffed criminal(a Jat) and an average young Rom).The criminals documented in the above link are all Jats and their main criminal enterprises include drug dealing,prostitution,theft,extortion and the like.Similarly,Gypsies in America engage in the same illegal activities.......

John Mclaughlin says,"...As a general rule,Gypsies will not steal from one another.Motivated by greed,personal ambition,or the desire to mantain a monopoly over an area of economic activity,the Gypsy very often will resort to organized crime,violence and extortion.The criminal activities include drug trafficing,prostitution,welfare fraud,insurance fraud,car theft,revenge killings,the paddy hustle,credit card swindles and so on.....

Gypsies are probably involved in assaults and batteries more than any other community in their midst.Brawling is a Gypsy way of life and any Gypsy that does not show an inclination for violence is looked down upon..This most generally occurs when attempting to flee from a potential victim or police officer who is physically attempting to restrain them....Gypsies
can be,and often are,extremely violent.This violence can be directed against other Gypsies or the Gadjo....Arguments over the division of loot,the bride price,and family vendettas frequently erupt into extreme violence among Gypsies.Fists,clubs,knives,and guns are used not infrequently,but in most cases,they are employed in the heat of passion.Seldom is their use premeditated.The gypsies are a passionate people who act before they think.

A classic example of an intragypsy brawl occurred in 1924 in the Cook County Courthouse in Chicago.At that time,Amelia Marks(matriarch of the Marks vista)and Ten Bimbo(patriarch of the Bimbilishi)were embroiled in a lengthy court battle that arose over a brideg price dispute.Charges and counter charges were filed.During the last of several trials,the jury was out for 7 hours.While awaiting the verdict,more than a hundred Gypsies milled about the corridors of the courthouse.Tension mounted as the Gypsies of the opposite visti threw dirty looks at each one and shouted curses.finally the tension exploded into violenceand a melee erupted.Several squads of police were called to quell the riot,and eleven Gypsies were hospitalized for injuries receieved from clubs,knives,and police batons.

When gypsies fight among themselves,the police are usually involved only if they happen to be on the spot or if a nongypsy notifies them of the fracas.Occasionally a gypsy will call the police regarding a Gypsy fight,but only as a means of revenge.The arrest and short incarceration serve their purpose,and further prosecution seldom occurs."

Why is it that after selling their wives/daughters to first the muslims,and then the english these hindu cow-shaggers are still infesting the world?.
You sickhs should have taken partition when you had the chance like we did.
you have learnt too late these hindus have no honour.
hope you have another chance inshala.

The backward caste peoples MUST realise that all historical claims must be made only with reliable supporting evidences,full bibliographies,relevant and web links and an adherence to strict principles of historical varification and codes.

As of right now,Jats on this net have only heaped insults ans made silly claims without proper varification procedures.Jats,this is not an village OBC village in the Punjab where you can make fairy tales with impunity.YOU PEOPLE MUST PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR ALL YOUR CLAIMS,and must mantain a strict level of intellectual integrity.cheap gypsy tricks and abuses simply will not work.

Even your so-called professional writers are not taken seriously presicely because you people HAVE NOT learnt to take proper documentation and varification of facts seriously;

SOURCE>>>http://www.jatland.com/history/books.htm

Look what Jats themselves admit about their lack or a historical process in detailing their 'history',and a lack of an adherence to facts:

"the history of the Jats is rather poorly documented when compared to most other communities.This is partly due to a lack of a homogenious social-political identity until the later part of the 19th Century....

"Books have been written about Jats but many tend to be POOR SCHOLARLY texts,in light of near absence of refrence material preceding the last Century."

"The absence of reliable historical material creates significant gaps which are then open to intepretation."
'A recent book,'Forming an Identity;A social history of the Jats" by nonica Datta is an attempt at writing a well researched book but it SUFFERS FROM THE SAME PROBLEMS>Although the author tries to base her work on published documents,the near absence of those forces her to quote from texts whose 'accuracy' she herself starts out bu questioning.Thus alot of the inferences drawn by the author,though appearing to be backed by 'hostorical' evidence,are merely restatements of questionable sources."

Anon. of Dec. 1, 8.15pm.,

Your filthy language only serves to confirm your lowly background and poor caste! Instead of cheap insults and abuses,why not provide us with real facts and proofs for your silly claims.Intelligent people make intelligent comments,but fools resort to abuses.As of right now,you have NOT provided us with even one varifiable fact!!

It must have dawned on you by now that Jat/Gypsy history is a reality and here to stay! No amount of tireless insults on your part will be able to undermine the over 1000 year old COLOURFUL and beautiful history of the Jats/Gypsies!

Regards.....

okay folks!


further to the gypsy/hindu bahman connection,there is the fact that hindu women are commonly and by choice called


ROMA and ROMILA.

THESE TWO ARE VERY COMMON HINDU NAMES AND DATE BACK TO THERE GYPSY PAST.

In fact its as a tribute to the bahman gypsy legacy.

the other ones are

1 - religion of both to worship hindu gods like KALI MA

2- race and origin - hindu india

3- language--romani derived from the hindi

4-cunning beguiling ways

5-supersitions/dagha/taweezes/remedies/gems ets.

6-palm reading and astrolgy

7-exchane/bartering

8-begging(at jat houses!)

9-courtesans.

10-myth/story telling

11-ayuvedic/natural mediceines

etc etc


EVERY ONE OF THESE POINTS AND MORE ARE EXACT DETAILS AND ONLY FOR GYPSIES AND BAHMANS.EVERY INDIAN AND PUNJABI KNOWS THAT SO NO AMOUNT OF REPEAT POSTS FROM OLD BLACK BIHARI RAHUL ,CAN FIND ANY COMMON GROUND WITH JATS!


just to address one of those points;

palm reading.


every mandhir has a resident pundit whose sole job is to read palms or birthsigns and con people out of money by pretending there are remedies.

gypsies are known to read palms for a living and trying to sell remedies for good luck or warding off the evil eye!

I HAVE YET TO EVEN HEAR OF A JAT PALM READER.!

point by point it applies to all the others

blackie rahul is talking thru his backside now as he has obviously exhausted the rubbish that he can spew from any normal orifice!

THATS WHERE HE SHOWS HIS TRUE GYPSY HINDU ORIGINS>

http://www.ipcs.org/archives/09sept2001/01jul-sep-gov.html

Jats,did you know that your brethen in U.P. have been placed in the MOST BACKWARD CASTE(scheduled caste) bracket in that State together with the Kurmis because of extreme poverty.

We Hindus have always tried to help your people inspite of your animosity towards us!

Quote;

Under the heading,"compartments within the OBC bracket. The Hindu, 19 Sept. 2001."

"....And this explains the hurried manner in which the reservation policy was formulated in such a fashion that the Jats and the Kurmis were placed in the Most Backward Castes bracket."

According to the Oxford Dictionary,Oxford University press,2000 edition,

BACKWARD means,"(1)directed to the rear or starting point.(2)reversed (3)Mentally retarded or slow.(4)reluctant,unassertive(5)Unsophisticated,underdeveloped.

According to the same dictionary,

BACKWARD CASTE means,"(in India).A caste oficially regarded as socially disadvantaged."

SOURCE>>>http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_5.doc

General Walter Scott observed as early as the 17th Century that "The Panjabi Jat appeared in Indian history as a nomad,alternately Shepherd,robber and temporary tiller of Ground....It apperas probable from the appearance and other pecularilies of the race that the Jats are connected by consanguinity with that pecular race the Gypsies."

Also Col.Sleeman in consultation with Col.Dunsterville('the collector of hyderabad') and Capt.Trumpp came to the same conclusion independently.

Quote;(refer to link) "The Jats are still partly nomadic and perhaps of old they were fully nomadic.They are breeders of cattle and rude veterinary surgeons.They are fond of Music;and their dances are exactly represented by those of the Egyptian Gypsies,a similarity which has yet to be insisted upon.Their ironsmelting,like that of the Mahabalshwar tribes,is exactly like that of the Roma.Their swordplay is borrowed from the Hindu,whereelse the Gypsies in Scotland use a direct thrust straight to the front,certainly not learned in India.The village Jats mould their babies' heads.(a Gypsy custom)Divination seems to be the growth of the soil.Snake charming is also common among them.As their history in the Panjab proves,they are disposed to robbing and viloence........"

SOURCE>>>http://www.bethany.com/profiles/clusters/8083.html

NOTE:It must be noted that the Jats are "NOT a homogenious ethnic group" but a mixed or mongrel race.(see web link )They are also thought to be Gypsies.(see web link) Notice that any serious article on Jats always claims their Gypsy lineage,as the one cited above.This is understandable because there is much more evidence for their Gypsy lineage than say,any supposed "connections" with Scythians long ago.In fact almost ALL Shudra tribes in North India ,like Tarkhans,Gujaars,Chamars etc. some sort of "Scythian"(whatever that means!?) heritage.so jats are not alone in claiming so-called "Scythian" heritage in north India.Besides,the Jats are "not a homogenious ethnic group",so it doesn't matter one way or the other.In short,they are a mixed race,presumably with Dravadian,Turkik,perhaps a little Scythian(whatevet that means!?) blood in them.Most anthropologists include Jats in the broad category as "Indo-European" speaking people.That's all we can say for certain:

Some quotes from the above link:

"The Jats are not a homogenious ethnic group living in a particular area and speaking a single language.Rather they are a people who live scattered around the World among several ethnic groups,yet retain their own identity.The Jats are primarily located in North West India and S.Pakistan,although there are also significant communities in Maldives,Russia,Ukraine."


"There are different opinions as to the origins of the Jats....There is a theory suggesting that they may be predecessors of Gypsies"

"Overall,the Jats have a very good self-image...It has been said that no Jat wants to be ruled....."

"In India and Pakistan,the Jats are usually either farmers or nomadic herdsmen.Sometimes they are forced to do both.Different tribes of Nomads breed different types of animals.Because they value thriftiness and diligence,the Jats are often regarded as miserly.The settled Jat farmers grow cereals such as Wheat,Maize,and millet.They also raise sugercane as a cash crop.fruits,vegetables,and rice are grown in certain areas.Onlt the men work in the fields,while the women are responsible for mantaining the household.The basic diet of peasant Jats is unleveaned bread and curry,seasonal vegetables,ghee,and milk."

"Most Jats live in rural areas.depending on whether they are settled farmers or nomadic herdsmen,they may live in permanent villages or temporary camps.most jat villages are compact.They consist of small homes,cattle sheds,a village square,and a well or pond.The homes generally have flat roofs and are made of baked or unbaked bricks.nomadic Jats live in portable huts that are usually made of reed mats and wood."

"The Jats who live in India need clean drinking water and proper health care facilities.Christian medical teams and humanitarian aid workers are needed to work among them and show them god's love in practical ways."

"Gypsy Lifestyles",John Mclaughlin:

Fake Accidents and Insurance Fraudpg.76)


I am inclined to believe that most cab drivers in North America are Jats.I think this is a fair assesment.It is also fair to conclude that Jats have a tendency to engage in insurance fraud and other schemes to rip off the so-called "non-Jat" government.We all know this is true from reading articles in newspapers etc.,or in the case of Jats,from the personal experiences of your friends etc! The Gypsy ofcourse also has a similar tendency.

John Mclaughlin writes,"In recent years,widespread coverage by the news media regarding large settlements in accident cases has created an abnormal fear among many Americans of being sued.Indeed,some judges and juries have substantiated this fear by awarding large sumns of money to persons who have suffered only the slightest of injuries or,in some cases,mere humiliation.

Juries are fickle,as any lawer knows.This fact is also well known by insurance companies,who prefer the safety of an out-of-court settlement to the risk of jury trial.

Most people who own property or an automobile carry liability insurance.Certainly the vaste majorities of businesses are well insured and,as such,are prime targets for the fake accident con.The technique is simple.The Gypsy enters a business establishment and looks for an easy place for an accident to happen.He then falls down and feigns excruciating pain.

If the Gypsy is going for a quick con,he will usually have filled his grocery cart with food or his arms with goods that he says he intended to purchase.Fearing an expensive law-suit,the store manager will often allow the gypsy to leave with free merchandise in return for a signed waver of release.

However,a trip by ambulance to the hospital and a doctor's examination will generally bring a cash settlement.A smart insurance adjuster will frequently attempt to negotiate a quick cash setlement before the injured party can contact a lawyer.If the 'injured' Gypsy hesitstes by saying that he wants to talk to a lawyer first,the adjuster may up the ante to induce him to sign the release form immediately.In New york city,a fake fall by a Gypsy in a supermarket netted him a settlement of $2500.

The easiest injuries to fake are head injuries,loss of equilibrium,and back pains.By memorising the right answers to the doctor's standard questions,and by feigning pain at the right time in response to certain tests,the 'injured' Gypsy can convince the examining physician that there exists the possibility of severe injuries.The physician's doubt also encourages the insurance company to make a full settlement.To fake a head injury,the 'injured' Gypsy complains of persistant and severe headaches,dizziness,and blurred vision.Reading an eye chart poses little difficulty,since he is probably illiterate!X-rays ofcourse are avoided.

When performing an examination for a back injury,the doctor may ask the patient to bend forlward and to touch his right foot with his left hand,and vice versa.A clever faker will immediately yell with pain the minute he starts to bend forlward.Giving it a second try,the Gypsy will scream even louder and refuse to perform the test because it is too painful......

If the doctor wants X-rays,the Gypsy will feign such pain that he is unable to put himself in the proper position for photographs.If the doctor wants a spinal tab,the Gypsy,upon learning the he will be stuck with a needle,simply refuses by saying that he is already in too much pain.

If possible,the injured Gypsy will recuperate at home rather than inhospital.He will make a doctor's appointment in two or three days fro further tests.Meanwhile,the insurance adjuster has conferred with the doctor,who usually does not want to make a premature diagnosis,but will admit to the possibility of a back injury.This is an added impetus for the adjuster to make a quick settlement."

source: "Gypsy Lifestyles",John Mclaughlin.

We saw in previous posts some traditional occupations of Gypsies;they include farm labourers,auto body workers,fortune tellers etc.For example the author says that "Gypsies possess a natural desire for performing farm labour." Farm labour is ofcourse one of their traditional occupations,inaddition to fortune telling and believing in wild superstitions.. The following are some other gypsy occupations:

Metalworking;

"Metalwork has been a traditional trade among the Gypsies for centuries.even today some Gypsies will supplement their income with piecemeal metalwork.

Metalworkers can be divided into several categories;the blacksmith who works with a hammer at the forge(some smiths work cold,that is,without fire);the tinsmith or coppersmith,who works with sheetmetal;the tinner who plates objects with tinplating or other inoxidizable metal;and the silver and goldsmith,who works repairing jewellery.Occasionally,gold and silversmiths will counterfeit commemorative or foreign gold or silver plated coins,which are then hawked at the markets.

Other Gypsy metalworkers specialize in boiler work.The work is seasonal,but can be highly lucerative during the Summer months.A single job can be worth several thousand dollars.Many Gypsies are highly skilled metal workers and do excellent work at reasonable prices.As with any craft,the only possibility for a swindle involves sloppy work done,the use of inferior materials,or overcharging.".

"Gypsy lifestyles," John Mclaughlin.(pg 43)

Fortune Telling:

"A traditional occupation of the Gypsies is fortune telling,and almost all Gypsy women are trained in the art.Many practice the trade in permanent locations,remaining in the same place for years.

All arrangements for operating an 'ofisa' are handled by th man,who finds the location,negotiates the lease,erects signs,and prepare advertisments....Fortune telling is a skill in character analysis rather than in exhibition or extrasensory perception.The reader's powers of observation and deduction are combined with her ability to extract personal information from the customer.This information is then repeated to the customer,who marvels at the Gypsys magical power....."

...The following observation is personal.There was a young Jat man working in our office a few years back.He was a cocky fella,always pretending to know more than he actually did.When he first started work at our office ,he approached me one day at the cafeteria and boasted that he could "reveal personal information about myself and read into my future." All he needed,so he said, was my date of birth,time of birth and full name.I gave him the information,just for a laugh,and sure enough,he revealed intimate details about myself to me.Naturally,I was impressed and marvelled.It was not until a few weeks later that I found out to my disgust that this dishonest young Jat man had actually nonchalantly querried a close friend of mine about simple details from my personal life prior to approaching me.He used that information,a little deduction,and came up with an accurate analysis.Incredible!!

"To make a profit,they must rely on overcharge....The first step in the overcharge is to learn the source of the customer's problem,to sympathize with him or her,and to convince him or her that the Gypsy can help.The first session usually lasts 20 to 30 minutes and generally costs $10.Timing is of paramount importance;the first session must end promptly.The reader waits until the customer has either broken into tears or began to pour out her troubles.Right at that moment,the Gypsy appologises for cutting off the session,!!but explains that she has an appointment with another customer.She tells the first customer that she is sure that she can set up a second appointment.

It is during the second session that the Gypsy makes her pitch.Most fortune-telling establishments are set up with an alter to be utilized if the customer is religious.The customer's religious preference is unimportant,because the alter contains many religious objects--a cross,Buddha,a star of David,and so on.In the semidarkness of the room,the appropriate is selected from the alter and placed on the table between the reader and her customer.The customer is asked to pray.Then the Gypsy prays,usually in Romany,but throwing in occasional refrences to the customer's religion ,such as 'sweet Jesus save his soul' or 'pray fro this person,oh Buddha'.Totally susceptable to suggestion at this point,the Gypsy agrees to burn a candle....The second session lasts 40 to 60 minutes and naturally costs twice as much as the first...These sessions continue until the customer runs out of money!In one instance,a gypsy fortune teller was able to extract $800 from one customer in only three sessions...."

"Gypsy lifestyles",John Mclaughlin.
(pg 52)

Gypsys and Autobody Repair shop work:

"Many male Gypsies earn money by doing auto body repair work.Some are quite skilled,and in a few cases,have actually gone to school to learn the trade.However,having completed school,they will not go to work for a Gadjo,but prefer to operate their own business....

One method of operation is to drive about the streets looking for a dented up car.The Gypsies will then knock on the doors until they locate the owners of the vehicle.The gypsy who finally locates the damaged automotive's owner will give him a plausable explanation as to why he operates door to door and why he is willing to perform the labour for such low cost.Of course,it is best if no price is first agreed upon,for then the Gypsy can charge an exorbitant fee.If a price is fixed,he will try to wheedle more money out of the gadjo by saying that the job was more complicated than it first appeared and took longer than expected.if the victim refuses to pay more than the fixed price,the Gypsy will usually accept the money and leave.If the job is poorly done and the victim refuses to pay or offers less than the agreed price,the Gypsy will attempt to intimidate him by violence,creating a loud disturbance,threatening legal action,or in rare instances,calling the police.Since this is a civil matter and falls outside their jurisidiction,there is little the police can do.However,their mere presence may intimidate the victim into paying....."

John Mclaughlin,"Gypsy Lifestyles".

Farm labour,one of the traditional occupations of Gypsies:

John writes in page 47 of his book,"Another of the traditional occupations available to Gypsies ,farm labour, provided the major source of income for many Gypsies.Although strenious,field work is ideally suited to the Gypsy lifestyle.Following the crops,the Gypsies camp in the open or live in housing units provided by their employers.They also live in rented basements.Sometimes,Gypsies own their own small farms.They work as an independent unit,keeping to themselves in the fields and in the camps.social contact with the gadje(non-gypsy) workers is avoided as much as possible.The Gypsies refuse to eat in the mess hall,prefering to cook their own food.Their clothes are washed apart from the others,and when dried on the clothe lines,they are separated from the Gadje's clothing.

Farm labour does not conflict with the Gypsies' desire for isolation,infact quite the reverse is true. Employers allow their workers free reign to live as they please as long as they put in a good day's work in the fields.Gypsies are very imdependent minded.To avoid the stigma of working for a Gadjo,the Gypsies contract for their servicres.The contracted arrangements are made by the patriarch with the grower.Normally the grower hires an individual and pays him by the hour,the piece,or a combination thereof.food and housing is either provided free of cost or at low rates.Payment is made to the patriarch,who in turn distributes the money to his family members.Unfortunately,automation has reduced the number of Gypsies in the farm market,and today many Gypsies work only seasonally.Gypsies,it seems,possess a natural desire for performing farm labour...."

"Gypsy Lifestyles",John B. Mclaughlin;


John writes,"Except in dire economic crises,Gypsies will not work for Gadje(non-Gypsies).To do so would bring shame and could even place them in a state of mahrime.The refusal of the Gypsies to work for Gadje minimises social contact with non-Gypsies and helps them to perpetuate the Gypsy way of life.Gypsies are for the most part self-emoployed.

During a conversation with a gypsy,I asked if he would ever work for a non-Gypsy.His reply was,"Never.Never will I work for the Gadje." He went on to say,"Being a Gypsy is a hard life.We work very hard.You have to work all the time." He then tapped his forefinger with his forehead and smilingly said,"We Gypsies know how to make money.".... Yet,during hard times,Gypsies do very often end up working for Gadje.They are usually employed as unskilled or menial labour."

A quick note:

Like the Jews and Magyars,the Jats-Gypsies have been a persecuted,hated and despised group throughout their history.

Jats-Gypsies were taken by the Arabs as auxiliaries(foot soldiers),slaves and musicians to various parts of the Middle-East ,Europe proper, Balkhans,Byzantium and so forth throughout their history proper.The Britishers did the same to them.....

However,there is one glaring difference between the fortunes of the Jews and Jat-Gypsies.The Jews,inspite of all attempts at destroying them and having to contend with unbelievable persecutions,are today a proud people with a state of their own,Israel.Jews have also excelled in Scienc(many noble prize winners),art,economics,politics etc.Jat-Gypsies on the other hand,remain a poor Shudra wondering tribe of nomads and simple peasants,without a homeland or Country of their own,without culture,without language,without science or significant scientific achievement and no economic or political power anywhere it the World.They are truly an unremarkable people, but the do add COLOUR to our lives with their wonderful music,dancing ,pecular traditions and good self-image........

ref: nov.29,2001,6.29am.,

As far as Gypsy contribution to classical music and composition is concerned,they helped shape Brahm's "Hungarian Rhapsody",Sarasate's "Zigeunerwe",and ofcourse not to forget the great Berlioz himself!!


IMPORTANT NOTE:All the great composers mentioned were ofcourse NOT Gypsies;Gypsies only influenced the music of these great composers...VERY important! Gypsie's are also randomly prone to claiming other peoples' histories without proper supporting evidences(like their Jat brethen),so we have to be very careful to point that fact out!!!

Now,the Encyclopaedia says that "Jats are thought to be related to the Romany people".(see previous post for full reference) Let's now see what it means to be a Romany:

ref: http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/CC2.HTM#ROMANY

Romany:

"The Romanys are a nomadic Caucasoid people,also called Gypsy.They are believed to have originated in North West India,and live throughout the World.The Romany language is a member of the Indo-European family."

According to Ian Hancock,many people initially thought Charlie Chaplin was Jewish because he criticized Hitler and looked Jewish.However,in actual fact,good old Charlie was a Roma!

Jats,did you know that Roma have influenced the music of some of the greatest composers of the world like Liszt,Brahms,Dvorak,Verdi,Rachmaninov and Bartok! Also, well-know actors like Yule Brenner,Charlie Chaplin,Rita Haywood,Michael Caine and Bob Hopkins were also Roma....What a colourful Jat/gypsy history indeed!

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM ref.#JAT

We all know that encyclopaedia's only make claims that have been clearly varified by top historians,scientists etc.They also list only the essential characteristics of a people etc....The following is what the probert Encyclopaedia(2001 version),the most comprehensive encyclopaedia in the World, says about Jats:

"The Jat are an ethnic group living in Pakistan and North India,and numbering about 11 million;they are the largest group in North India.The Jat are predominantly farmers.They speak Punjabi,a language belonging to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European family.They are thought to be related to the Romany people."

You know I used to think that this blackie rahul passing as anonymous since I wrote to the editor was half mad but the last few days I see that he is fully mad!

Seems to think that just by saying things they will come true where Jats are concerned but I think he knows a lot about gypsies becuz Hindus but more Bahmans are gypsies and I will post you some links as well now and later.I have a lot of links to get thru!

"Jat" custom that he tries to link with gypsies,I have never heard of except where BAHMANS and Gypsies are concerned regarding every single thing from race,culture,religuion,occupation,supersition and culture plus ayuvedic medicine to name a few.

Just saying things dont count and speculation nor by writing mile long essays sprinkled with "Jat" in it does not count.

Even in the links he posts that word Jat does not appear but look at this one .its Hindu so called RAJPUTS that are the gypsies and HIndi/Urdu the language base and not Punjabi

http://geocities.com/Paris?5121/pariah-ch17.htm

The word Jat is not mentioned but Rajputs/Ksharystris /Brahmins/Hindu shudras are.


http://scnt01426pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/articles/Language/Indo-European.htm

The origin of Romani language being Indic-Sanskrit...Hindi /Urdu

Gypsies are Hindus by race,language,culture ,supersitions ,religion and occupation.Every point matches.

No Jat name matches Chamars names despite repeating the same opld rubbish.
I have heard odd cases of some other caste who is a wannabee trying to adopt a Jat name but I also know personally of a chamar called Ved Parkash Sharma living in Edinburgh.I dont know of a single chamar with an adopted or otherwise Jat name.

I do know of plenty of chamars etc who become Brahmins for the duration......ie VAJPAYEE by full knowledge of bahmans.I know plenty of Europeans who are Brahmins just to fleece the nutty hindu pavementwallahs like old thickshit black Rahul here...Gandhis and good luck to them too!

I still am amused at the stupidity and mental state of this nutcase who can read Roma of Italy for pizzas as Rom or anything remotely to do with Jats apart from business acum.

The black gypsy rahul is mad and every one of his delirious posts prove it apart from being way off the mark just as the Roma pizza was!

he is good for a laugh if nothing else!

SOURCE>>>"GYPSIES IN THE CITY,Culture Patterns and Survival.",Rena C. Gropper(Associate Professor),Hunter College of the city of New York,Darwin Press,Princeton,New Jersey.Copyright 1975.

"In 1763,Stefan Valyi,a protestant student of theology at Leyden University,discovered quite by accident that there was a close similarity between the Gypsy language of the Kormoran district of Hungary and the Sindhi language of Northern India....Thus began a long series of investigations by such linguists as Pott(1844),Miklosisch(1872-1880),Paspati(1870),von Wlislocki(1890) and Turner(1926,1927)that led to the conclusion that the Romani is akin to modern Sindhi and Punjabi.....

The Persian poet Firdusi(ca.940 -ca.1020) in his famous epic poem,the Shah Namah(book of kings)makes refrence to a fifth century A.D. King by the name of Behram Gour,who receieved 12000 Zott musicians as a gift from an Indian potentate.To this day,Iranians refer to Gypsies as Zott.Furthermore Hamza of Isfahan,some fifty years before Firdusi,mentions the same story and again calls them Zott,which is the Arab term Gypsies.(Grierson 1888:73)

During the Persian-Arab wars of the seventh century,Zotts were introduced into the Persian army;they defected to the Arabs when the Shah suffered reverses.Around 670,the Caliph Mouwia brought Zotts and their families from Basra to Antioch and other Syrian towns.By the third century of the Muslim era,there were separate Zott quarters in the city of Antioch.

At the beginning of the nineth century,Zotts were living in the lower Tigris Valley,and in 834 some were captured,apparently as slaves,and were transported to an area about 100 miles northeast of Baghdad and northern Syria.In 855,they were mentioned in refrence to Byzantine Empire(de Goeje 1886:14-58;Grierson 1888:74;Macritchie 1886:77-79).By the eleventh century,it would seem,Gypsies or Gypsy-like groups were scattered throughout the Near East....."

http://www.wnn.or.jp/wnn-c/tabi/etabi_3.html

Gypsies,whose native land is said to be Northern India,have created their own unique kind of music by bringing together many kinds of music which they gathered from all corners of the world during their migrations.Hungarian Gypsies,by combining Eastern melodies and Magyar rythms,have created music filled with courage and yet containing the plaintive sounds of the plains.The melodies are woven with the tragic history and suppressed passions of the persecuted Magyars and Wondering Gypsies.It make's the listeners heart tremble....For example Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody and Brahms Hungarian Dance,the most famous pieces among Hungarian music,are based on Gypsy dance Czardas.Berlioz's Hungarian March and Sarasate's Zigeunerweisen(Gypsy tune)are also arrangements of Gypsy music......."

I have to admit that the more I educate people on Jat/Gypsy history, the more fascinated by it I myself have become.Jat history is indeed COLOURFUL,as XXX is apt at saying.I am not undermining it in the least by writing factually and honestly about it,on the contrary! After all,there can surely be no history in the whole World more COLOURFUL than Jat/Gypsy history!

Gypsies,the pariahs of Europe;

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/images/pariah-49.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/images/pariah-37.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/images/pariah-38.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/images/pariah-41.gif
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/images/pariah-44.gif

Refer to my last post:
NOTE:

The Gypsy tribal groups of the Balkhans even today have some of the same clan names as the Sindhi Jats;these include clan names like Jiskani,Kalaru and Magasi !!!

Notice that these are clan names of Gypsies from one particular area of Europe only.I am sure with more research on Gypsies of other areas of Europe, we will confirm many more clan names similar to Jats!

Enjoy.

SOURCE Thomas Action,'Gypsies".London,Mcdonald Phoebus Ltd.,1986

Important note:

:"...The Sindhi Jats have many different clans,these are the principle ones;Bhati,Sanjarani,Siyal,Kalaru,Magasi,Solangi,Jiskani,Parhiyar,Babbur,Mir-Jat(pg. 113)....Some nomadic Gypsy tribes of the Balkhans have retained their Sindhi tribal identities of long ago,these include SINTI,,JISKAN,KALARU,MAGASI,JHUGI(pg.114)...."

I am very sure there are many more clan names that are in common with Gypsy and Jat.I will do more research and let you know.But enjoy these few for now......

Also,
SOURCE>>>Elwood Trigg,'Gypsy Divinities',Citadel Press,102 Enterprise Ave.,Secaruse,N.J. 07094.

Elwood writes "....Some continental Gypsies were known to call themselves Sinti,which confirmed their original homeland of Sindh in India.What is more,some Syrian Gypsies call themselves Jats,the very same name as a great tribe lying in the Valley of the Indus(pg 6)........"

Also,
SOURCE>>>http://www.romani.org/rishi/rnames.html

"Zott or Jaut. Zott is the name by which the Gypsies were known to the Arabs and which they bear at the present day.The Arab historian Hamza of Ispahan who wrote half a century before Firduasisays that 12 000 musicians sent to Behram Gour from India were called Zott.In the Arabic dictionary al-Kamus,this entry occurs as follows:"Zott,Arabicised from Jatt,a people of Indian origin.The word might be pronounced Zatt with equal correctness." In the lexicon mohit we read,"Zott,a race from India;Arabicized from Jatt...."

Note:The Gypsy term for 'Gadje' is quite similar to the Jat term 'Gohre',which is used by Jats to refer to White people.Also,all people who are not Jats are refered to by Jats as 'non-Jats',exactly the same meaning of the Gypsy term 'Gadje'.'Gadge' means in the Gypsy language,in the broad sence,all non-Gypsy people:

"Gypsy Lifestyles",John Mclaughlin;

Attitudes towards Gadje:

"The basic reason the Gypsies have retained their specific identity is their self-imposed isolation and their disdain for the Gadjo world.The Gypsy considers himself to be of superior breed and of pure blood,hence he defiantly looks down upon all non-Gypsy customs as inferior...Most Gypsies are semi-literate.The Gypsy is apt to stress the pursuit of money over a good education.The Gypsies have gotten along quite well over the years without a high level of education.They see no reason to begin now.To the Gypsy,the pursuit of money is the ultimate source of power.....In short,the Gypsies look upon the Gadje much the same as the Western pioneers looked upon the American Indian." (Talk of a good self-image,Ha!Ha!Ha!)

"Gypsy children are taught at an early age to value Gypsy customs over the inferior Gadjo....The Gypsy child is trained to do things the Gypsy way.This is a deliberate act of defiance toward the Gadjo world."We dont need your words,your ways,your ideas.We can get along without you." The complete ban on intermarriage also reinforces the isolation of the Gypsy.Radio and television are considered a fantasy.They do not represent the real world;that is,the Gypsy world.The Gypsies view radio and television in much the same way as other people view science fiction movies--entertaining,but impossible in real life.

Gypsy children are forbidden to pick up Gadje customs.Their playmates are usually members of their immediately or extended family.Moreever,with the exception of field workers and entertainers most Gypsies are self-employed.Hence,even employment affords little contact between the gypsy and the outside world.In addition,given that Gypsy employment can involve swindling money from non-Gypsies,this does little if anything to provide for positive social contact.

Gadje are afforded no respect or consideration.Indeed,they are looked down on and seen as virtual alien beings from another planet.Although the Gypsies recognise that they live in a Gadjo wirld,they seldom,if ever,consider adapting the Gadjo ways,conforming to their social customs,or obeying their codified laws.Gadjo law does not apply to Gypsies(or so they believe),but it must be reckoned with and subverted..........

SOURCE>>>"Gypsy Lifestyles",John Mclaughlin;

On Death:

John writes,"The death of a Gypsy is a serious matter,involving much ritual.If it is known or suspected in advance that a Gypsy is going to die,word of the impending death is spread via a clandestine communications network to the relatives.These relatives immediately drop whatever they are doing and head for the ailing Gypsy's bedside.Thus,at the time of a Gypsy's death,there may be several hundred other Gypsy's present.

Immediately after death,relatives must observe a three day mourning period,during which time they must not bath,shave,or comb their hair.They are also forbidden to change clothes or wear jewellery.For three days the grieving Gypsies must remain in the presence of the dead,even sleeping in the funeral parlour,its corridors,or on the ground outside.

On the third day,the funeral is held.The deceased is buried in his best clothes and all with all his personal effects....when the funeral is over,relatives attend a death feast.Before beginning the feast,the table must be purified.This is done by the patriarch or the vitsa,who passes a tray of burning incense over it...The guests are then permitted to sit down.Each guest is provided with a plate,utensils,a glass and some food.The food is prepared in unite of three and is observed by the women......"

General Walter Scott observed that,"The Panjabi Jat first appeared in Indian history as a nomad,alternately Shepherd,robber and temporary tiller of ground....It appears probable from their appearance and other pecularities of the race that the Jats are connected by consanguinity with that pecular race the Gypsies..."


Col. Sleemen,after consulting with Col.Dunsterville(the collector of 'Hyderbadad"),observed:"THe Jats are still half nomadic,and perhaps of old they were fully nomadic.They are breeders of cattle and rude veterinery surgeons.They are fond of music;and their dances are exactly represented by those of the Egyptian Gypsies.Their ironsmelting,like that of the Mahabahshwar tribe,is exactly like that of the Roma...."

Best Regards.....

Attn:XXX,Nov.27,11;56am,

Little friend,
Why dont you tell all the top scholars in the world in Gypsy origins that they are wrong!
Also,Chamars,Tarkhans and Jats share many last names in common,like Hir,Man,Buller,Bains,Chouhan,Sindhu,Panghu.,Sihota,etc.
Best Regards.

Hi Anti-Jat Guy,

Jat history of 2500 years is still standing very TALL! One need not be a Phd or rocket scientist to tell that if the Gypsy had the Jat ancestory then they must have clan names such as Gill, Mann, Bains, Sandhu, Dhillon, and Malli.

Even the ancient Jats who have fully integrated into the western societies are still using their clan names to date. Moreover, the Brits were very particular about the Jats---- they took your people as SLAVES to countries such as South Africa, Maritius,Trinidad,and Guyana, but Jats as soldiers to various western countries--it means Brits had no regards for your people whatsoever!--

That is the main reasons why today the descendents of those Jats in the west dominate their chosen professions and they know all about the COLORFUL ancient history of their forefathers! Best wishes.

Most top scholars in Gypsy origins today from Harvard,Oxford,Princeton etc.contend that Gypsies came from the Jats.Please read all my previous posts,including full bibliographies for sources,proofs and links.I have taken Huxley's words to heart that, "it is a sin to believe things without evidence." Therefore,all my posts are provided only with full refrences and bibliographies from top scholars only ,and over 90% of my posts are quotes from expert sources.I myself claim nothing.


Just some of these top scholars are Dr. Kenrick,Dr. Hancock,Dr.Ralph Turner,Dr. John Samson,Dr. Modi,Dr.Agnes,Dr.Mcantire,Prof.Bercovicci,Dr. Cohen,and many many others.

Britishers like Gen. Walter Scott,Col.Sleeman,Capt. Trumpp,Col.Dunsterville,Capt.(Dr.)Newbold,Lt.Woods,A.W. Hughes,Andrew Wilson,Dr. Burnard Davis,etc. also came to the same conclusion two hundred years ago.The Probert encyclopaedia (2001 edition)also confirms this fact........

Jats on this net,you can run away from many things,but you will NEVER be able to run away from yourselves(Roma).That I can guarantee.
Blessings......

Source>>> Thomas Action,'Gypsies'.London:Macdonald Phoebus Ltd.,1981

"In the reign of caliph Al-Walid (705-712)and Governor Al-Hajjaj of Iran(704-715) when the Arabs invaded Sindh,Jats were deported with their families.They were settled in the Marshlands between the Euphraties and the Tigris as Al-hajjaj was engaged in draining and populating these marshlands.For a short period(820-834)these Jats succeeded in establishing their own settlement but were scattered throughout the Arab Empire and became the modern day Zott Gypsies of Syria and the Middle-East......"

"It seems probable that three separate groups of Jats moved through the Middle- East and into Europe after 834A.D.,via Syria,Jats via Ainzarba and a third group(more Jats,Sindhi)through North Iran and into Armenia proper."

Burgenland Newsletter--Austria,Hungary,German edition;

'What is fairly certain;however,is that Gypsies originally came from North Western India(the Punjab),of the same origin as the Jats or Sudras who live there now."
source>>>

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/1999-07/0931006874

Continuation from previous post; Gypsy marriage customs;

"Gypsy Lifestyles",John B. Mclaughlin,University of Illonois,Lexington,Massauchusetts,Copyright,1980.

John Mclaughlin,like most experts in Gypsy history,says in his introduction,"It is conceded by most anthropologists that Gypsies originated in North West India from the tribe of the Jats....."

John writes,"....The actual wedding ceremony varies widely among Gypsies,but certain customs are common among the variations.If the wedding is the first marriage for the couple,the ceremony tends to be more eloberate than for second or third marriages.Usually incorporated in any Gypsy wedding ritual are
1 The Wedding Feast
2 The recital of a benediction by a respected elder.
3 The Zeita,or bringing the bride home.

The wedding is usually held in a rental hall,and food and liquor are in abundance.The guests seat themselves and the feasting begins.At the chosen moment, a respected patriarch rises...The bride and groom then eat a piece of bread,toss the salt over their shoulders,and drink from the same glass.The bride is then taken aside and the 'diklo' is placed on her head.

Next is the Zeita,the bringing home of the bride.The girl's relatives gather on one side of the hall and the boy's on the other.The groom stands to one side.Thr bride must leave her family and join that of her husband.After a tearful goodbye,the bride is physically pulled away from her family by the groom's relatives.A mock struggle begins,with the groom's relatives attempting to pull their new 'bahori' to their side while the girl's family resists.Sometimes if much liquor has been consumed,the ritual struggle turns into a real one and fights break out.

After the Zeita,the guests return to their places and continue the feast,which usually lasts late into the night....After the wedding,the groom's parents hold another party in their home for their friends,and the bride's parents give a party for their friends.The bride,ofcourse,goes to her husband's home,where she is expected to serve and entertain the guests.The partying will usually last three days....On the morning of the third day,the blood on the bride's nightgown is displayed to prove that she was a virgin....Although traditional and eloberate wedding ceremonies are the ideal,they do not always occur.Poverty may necessitate a less eloberate wedding,and,of course,second weddings are much less ornate.The wedding feast may then last ond day or a few hours....."

hello folks!

speculation and multiple postings by the blackie rahul hiding under his new name will not disguise the fact that gypsy and brahmin are one and the same.


playing on words will not pass for facts either as i pointed out about ROMA being the Italian word for Rome.

The black spots and other acts of scorery are also a HIndu thing as my links show.

Gypsy and Brahman are the same thing exactly by dint of

Ethnic origin

Language

Religion)Hindu worshipers of Kali ma)

Occupation of begging and bartering

Courtesans and dancing girls

Ayuvedic medicine

Astrology

Cunning and supersitious ways

Dagha /taweezes /gems etc

to name a few!

I have posted these quite a few times before but take a look at how the paranormal runs Hindu lives just like I said.

http://www.edu/quarterly/winter98/journey.html


http://www.astropanorama.com/nehru_and_astrology.htm

Old Nehru consulted these fraudersters every inch of the way,while at the same time distrusting!


http://www.vnn.org/world/9801/23_1530

The above links tell you about Brahman begging amongest other things which again so read it carefully!

Point for point the lives of hindus match gypsy in EVERY area of life.

The resident monkey rahul has a self loathing and thinks by speculation and repeat posts he will wish his gypsy origins away!

IT DONT WORK THAT WAY!

"Gypsy Customs",John Mclaughlin.

continuation from previous post.

Gypsy marriage customs:

"....As might be expected,accusations of abuse of the 'daro'are not infrequent.These claims usually centre around a father who has sold his daughter several times and kept each 'daro'.Undoubtly many of these accusations are not unfounded,as attested to by police reports of shootings,stabbings,and beatings resulting from arguments over the bride price,or kidnapping,as the Gadjo(non-Gypdy) authorities term them when brides are recalled home by their father.

Marriage arrangements may be saught at any time.Often fathers or whole families will travel thousands of miles to meet with other Gypsies for 'tumminois'.Frequently marriage arrangements are made during religious feasts or 'vista' gatherings.Although betrothal arrangements are deadly serious ,they are often conducted in an atmosphere of joviality.There are numerous behind-the scenes conspiracies.Older women gather in groups and plan unions;then they further plan in order to convince the 'rom' to agree.Meanwhile the 'rom' mingle among themselves discussing the merits of certain unions and extolling the virtues of their respective sons or daughters.voices rise and arguments ensue,although usually in good-natured fun.The shouts,the bargaining,and the bickering are a sort of an unwritten ritual.

Having agreed upon a marriage,the two fathers-in-law agree to meet together with the other 'rom'.The site chosen is the house of another Gypsy(never the home of either father-in-law)or,in the case of travelling Gypsies,a campsite in the open.Here the betrothal ceremony is performed.The prospective bride and groom may not attend the 'tumminos'.

The girl's father arrives first with his friends,and they seat themselves around a table and await the arrival of the boy's father.Once the prospective grooms father and friends have arrived and taken their places at the table with the others,the ritual begun.The groom's father presents the 'daro'to the father of the bride.An exaggerated and ceremonial counting of the 'daro' is performed by the girl's father and witnessed by all those present.By accepting the 'daro',the father of the bride gives his consent to the marriage.

The boy's father now presents his counterpart with a bottle of Whisky.A betrothal present is also offered.this gift is known as 'kapara'.the 'kapara' will later be given to the girl by her father.By accepting these items,the girl is giving her consent to the marriage.If the girl should change her mind at a later date,the gifts and the bride price must be returned.Such an occasion is rare,however,for the girl's father already knoes in advance of the betrothal negotiations that his daughter has consented.

The two father-in-law's then drink a toast from the bottle of Whisky.The girl's father will give money to several of the assembvled guests,who will go out and buy food and drink for the whole assembly.This entire ceremony is carried out with guards posted outside.

There is no set waiting period between consummation of the betrothal and the actual wedding.If the bride and groom are very young,several years go by between the betrothal and actual wedding.

"Gypsy lifestyles",John Mclaughlin.

continuation from previous post.

Gypsy Marriage customs:

Observe the almost identical marriage laws and princi-ples between Gypsies and Jats:

Mclaughlin writes,"Gypsy loyalty begins with the 'familia'(the immediate family from parents to great-grandchildren),then in lessening degrees to the vista(the extended families,including the uncles,aunts,cousins,and in-laws),the natsia,the rasa,and finally to all other gypsies.At any rate,Gypsies as a group comprise the outermost boundaries of Gypsy loyalty.Non-Gypsies receieve no consideration.

Since the core of Gypsy loyalty is the 'familia',it is understandable that marriage is of paramount importance in the Gypsy culture.Marriages between a couple with the same clan names are taboo.--A Gypsy woman may not marry a man with who has the same clan name as her father or her mother.Although it is not forbidden,marriages between Gypsies of a different rasa(social standing)occur less frequently.Marriages with Gadje(non-Gypsies)seldom happen.Gypsies take great pride in their heritage and the purity of their blood..


Because in-law's become part of the extended family,it is not deemed preferable for first cousins to marry because such a marriage could cause conflicting loyalties between brother and brother,sister and sister,or brother and sister.

contrary to the Gadjo(non-gypsy) concept of love and marriage,Gypsy marriages are usually arranged with a specific purpose in mind.......In recent times it has been allowable for a son to approach his father and express his desire to marry a certain girl.The father,ofcourse,must approve the union,and this is usually done when some benifit to the family can be derived.

The 'tumminos'or betrothal,is arranged between the fathers of the couple,although it is the prospective groom's father that must initiate the negotiations.If he approves of the marriage,he will send an intermediary to speak with the girl's father and ask for his approval.Theoratically,the couple has no say in the marriage arrangements,but it is general practice today to have the concent of both the boy and the girl.If the couple is too young to be consulted,the 'tumminos' may be completed without their approval but subject to cancellation should either party have a change of mind later.since it is common practice to obtain a daughter's approval,the intermediary's role is quite important,because a direct refusal could cause embarresment to the boy's father.

If the match is agreeable to trhe girl's father,the father of the boy will ask(again through his emissary)the bride price(daro).The amount of the 'daro' varies,depending on several factors:
1 The social status of the girl9that is,her 'vista','rasa',and the personal prestige of her family)
2 The girl's personal reputation(that is,does she adhere to traditional Gypsy ways.)
3 Her age
4 Her virginity
5 her intelligence(that is,her ability to make money)
6 The financial status of the families involved.


Use of the term bride price is rather misleading,because it suggests that Gypsie's buy their brides.The literal translation of the word 'daro' is 'gift' or 'present',and this is more meaningful in that it expresses more closely the attitudes of those involved.The 'daro' is actually a gift of respect given from the groom's family to the family of the bride to compensate them for the loss of their daughter.Acceptance of the 'daro' is considered by the bride's family as a form of protection that will ensure that their daughter is not mistreated by her new in-laws.Thus,if a family mistreated their new daughter in-law and caused her to be recalled to her father's house,they would not only loose a 'bahori',but the 'daro' as well9or a portion of it).Additionally,the amount of the 'daro' may affect the 'bahori's' status not only within her new family,but within the 'vista'.

The actual economic gain to the bride's family may not be as great as would appear,because the girl's family generally pays for part of the wedding feast,as well as the couple's clothes,jewellery,and household items,out of the 'daro'.Although the groom's father pays for the wedding feast,it is customary for the bride's father to return a certain amount of the 'daro' to help defray expenses.This 'kickback' is known as 'plutcka'.The elaborateness of the wedding feast will depend on the prominence,size,and wealth of the family.The coast of providing pounds of food and large quantities of liquor for one hundred guests could easily run into several thousand of dollars.A Gypsy wedding feast is always accompanied by a liberal amount of alcohol,,much dancing,wild feasting and boisterous singing.

Some Gypsies claim to have done away with the practice of the bride price,but this is probably to conceal their monetary gain from tavx collectors.Out of economic necessity,some destitute families may have discontinued the 'daro' custom.

Generally,the daro is paid in full before the wedding,although in some cases it has been paid on an installment plan.Customs vary when an installment plan is agreed upon......

"Gypsy Lifestyles",John Mclaughlin.

Notice the almost identical connection to Jat customs and traditions.

Continuation from previous post.

Maclaughlin writes,"....There is a marked difference in status between the groom and his bride.The groom is now a man and a full-fledged member of the adult male community,although he must defer to age.He may participate in adult male conversations and assumes his full share of the work load,for which he may receieve share of money.

The new wife,on the other hand,undergoes a decided and drastic change in social position.In almost all cases,the 'bahuri' goes to live with her husband's family,where she is totally under the jurisdiction of her parents-in-law and even to a lesser degree to her brothers-in-law and sisters-in law.She is responsible for the majority portion of housework (cleaning,cooking,serving and washing)and child care for the entire family.She is expected to wait on other family members and prepare and serve food to guests on any occasion,particularly during a feast or family function.She must do all this while she receieves lessons from her mother-in-law on all aspects of adult,family,and married life.As if these duties were not enough,the 'bahori' also must not only support her husband,but must find employment where applicable.In short,the 'bahori' is a virtual slave of her husband's family.

Ideally,the 'bahori' must possess the following qualities:
1 The ability to make money.
2The ability to bear male children.
3Subservience(obedience to her husband and to his family,respect for them,courtesy,and good manners.)
4Respectability(she should come from a respectable family and have a good reputation herself.)

If the 'bahori' can survive the early years of marriage,the marriage will generally mature and strengthen,lasting until death.The 'bahori's' status will rise successively with each male child she bears,until eventually,a new 'bahori' will come into the family.The older 'bahori'(elder brother's wife)is then relieved of her role and becomes a romi.

Some 'bahori' are unable to adapt to their new role and run away to their parents home.Most Gypsy marriages are arranged.If she has been treated fairly by her husband and his family,her father will generally force her to return to her rightful place.If she has been beaten or abused,the 'bahori's' father masy allow her to remain at home.

The relationship between the bride's parents and their son-in-law is usually less strained,because as a rule,the man does not live with his in-law's.Furthermore,he is not obliged to perform duties for his in-law's.However,he is in a subordinate position to his parents-in-law,not by dictates of the marriage,but because he is younger and,hence,occupies a lesser social position.

In the majority of marriages,the brides goes to live with her husband's parents....Occasionally a groom agrees to live with his wife's family.When he agrees to this condition,he falls under the domination of his parent's in-law's and must be obedient to them for as long as he lives in their household.Such a man is called a 'house rom'.No self-respecting rom will become a 'house rom' unless under very unusual conditions.Usually a house rom accepts this condition because it is the only way he can get a wife.He may lack the bride price(dowry)and have no hope of getting the necessary money,he may be in a state of defilment,or he may be physically and mentally handicapped.

The following are paramount to Gypsies:Rasa(race),Vista(clan),familia(family).A 'Compania' is an alliance of households(called tsera,which means 'tents') bound together for socioeconomic reasons.The 'compania' includes various related families but never includes Gadjo(non-jats/non-Gypsies.)

"Gypsy lifestyles",John Mclaughlin.

Notice the similarities, cultural and social etc., to the Jat family units..... Mclaughlin writes,"The 'familia'or "extended family unit" includes three or four generations and includes a man and his wife,their sons and daughters,daughter in- laws,grandchildren,and their offspring.The extended family unit is very important to the Gypsies and is their most fundamental unit of organization...'Vista' members are all related ,although they may be separated from each other by continents.Since they are all relatives they have certain obligations and privilages among themselves that they do not have with non-relatives.Members of the extended family have an obligation to attend the death ceremony of an important member.Should a destitute Gypsy relative appeal for food and shelter,he must be accomodated....In the Gypsy family,status and power are equated to sex and age.There is a strict separation between the sexes,both physically and socially.Brothers and sisters who have started puberty do not physically associate with each other.Gypsies prefer to live together in large rooms.However,the young boys sleep on one side of the room and the young girls on the other side.At social functions,the males stay together separate from the women.Only men,children and old women are allowed to sit together at the feast table,while the women serve and stand behind the diners getting what food they can.Men make the political decisions,arrange marriages for their sons and daughters.Gypsies seldom allow their daughters to be married to non-Gypsies.They refer to all non-Gypsies as Gadje or impure people.(note:exactly like the Jat, non-Jat concept that patriarchial Jats adhere to even today..)There is no doubt that the male enjoys a superior status.

However this superior status is tempered by age.Age is directly proportionate to respect and authority.In addition to judging age by the life cycle,it is also judged by physical appearance,that is ,grey hair,wrinkles,and so on.Contrary to gadjo(non-Gypsy)society,youth is not revered.Old age is desirious and welcomed because the older one becomes,the more respect and authority one is afforded.


The two conditions of respect(sex and age) work in conjunction with each other.A woman who is older than another woman has more respect,but she will have less status than a man of her own age.However,an older woman enjoys a higher status than a man who is younger than her.As women age,they outgrow the social stigma associated with their age.

Because older people are venerated,it becomes obvious that the leader of the family unit is the eldest male,that is,the grandfather or great-grand father,or in his absence,his wife.The eldest member of the family has total authority over all family matters and decisions.Further,he or she is given the first priority in all things.He or she is offered the most comfortable chair,the place of choice in the automobile,the most select pieces of food,and the largest share of any money that may be divided among the extended family.In fact,the eldest usually handles all the finances.All earnings are contributed to a family pool and then are distributed to family members by the eldest.

Children must at all times show respect to their elders.Their behaviour must be such that it does not bring shame to the elders.This privilaged status granted to family elders continues until sinility or death occurs.

The privilaged status of the elderly is exemplified by the practice of allowing grandparents to adopt children.Sometimes a grantparent will exercise complete authority simply by adopting one of his or her own grandchildren,even his or her own children are living in the same home.If she has a young child,the in-law's may allow her to tske the child with her.In such a case,the child is usually adapted by the maternal grandparents.If the woman's in-law's do not permit her to take the child,her husband's parents usually adapt the child.Evenif the husband re-marries,the child will continue to be raised by his or her grandparents because it is believed that the new wife will have no maternal feelings for the child.Grandparents also adopt nephews and neices or the children of cousins.Gadje(non-Gypsy) children are never adapted,because the Gypsies are very clannish and take great pride in the purity of their blood.Bringing a Gadjo(non-Gypsy) into the family will also bring shame to it.Divourse is taboo,although if a wife is divorsed,she usually returns to her grandparents household.Remarriage of divorced women is encouraged, if it is to a Gypsy.

The life stages of a Gypsy are infancy,childhood,adulthood(marriage),and old age.The infant has little,if any importance in the family.....The young Gypsy girls are permitted to wear Gadjo(non-Jat) clothing.Gypsies who strictly adhere to the old traditions will not permit their women to wear store-baught clothing.

A boy is called a shabaro(big boy) after the age of twelve.He is now eligible for marriage and his father will begin searching for a wife for him.The 'Shabaro' must now adhere to strict rules of cleaniness and observe the separation of sexes.He becomes more closely associated with his father.He and his older brothers work with their father,turning most of their income over to him.The 'Shabaro' is expected to be loyal to his father at all times,to unhesitatingly obey him,and to mantain a respectful and courteous manner.Loyalty to the clan is all important.Especially important to the Gypsy is the honour of his sister or daughter. Many a poor Gadjo(non-Gypsy)has been murdered by a vengeful Gypsy brother seeking retribution for his defiled sister.

Daughters retain their 'shey' status until they begin menstruation.At that point,a daughter is refered to as 'sheybari',which means 'big girl'.The beginning of the menstral cycle causes a drastic change in the lifestyle of the 'sheybari'.She is taught the concept of shame and uncleaniness.As with brothers,she is instructed in the rules of cleaniness,and she must observe the separation of the sexes and assume a lower social status.She must sleep alone,wash her clothes with the women of the family,and prepare her future role as a 'bahuri '(new wife).She is no longer permitted to wear Gadjo(non-Jat) clothes.Once menstral cycle has begun,she is ready for marriage.

The next stage in the life cycle of a Gypsy is marriage,which occurs as early as twelve years of age.In such a marriage,the husband and wife will sleep separately until they are old enough to consummate the marriage.Once the marriage has been consummated,the groom becomes the 'rom'(man) and the bride becomes the 'bahori'(new wife.)Not until she has conceieved several children will the 'bahori' attain the status of 'rommi'(wife,as opposed to new wife.)

SOURCE>>>john Mclaughlin,"Gypsy Lifestyles". ref.see previous post for full bibliography:


"Faced with severe penalties for merely being Gypsy,the gypsies were forced to continually on the move.By the middle of the fifteenth century,Gypsies were found in spain ,either having crossed the Pyrnees from France or havung come across the strait of giblartar from north Africa.Moving North ward from France,other roving bands of Gypsies travelled to Belgium and Holland.(in spite of the Dutch no entry policy.)Here splinter groups migrated Westwards England,Ireland and scotland while others roamed Northward to Denmark,sweden,norway.Nevertheless the main path of migration appears to be first into Germany,then into Poland and Lithuania,and finally into Russia.still other splinter groups entered Italy from either the Balkhans,crete,or cicily.some may have migrated Southward from France.by the end of the fifteenth century however,the gypsies were thoroughly diffused throughout Europe.

Whether the main body of Gypsies returned to Balkhans or simply remained there from the start is unknown.It is known,however,through governmental documentation,that a large number of Gypsies were enslaved in Rumania between the fourteenth and nineteenth century.Perhaps this accounts for ther popular belief that all Gypsies come from Rumania.obviouslt this is not true,because Gypsies could be found throughout europe,from the beginning of the fourteenth century up to the present.At any rate,the Rumanians emancipated the Gypsies in the middle of the nineteenth century,thus causing a new wave of Gypsy migration throughout europe and Russia.

It was also around this time that the presence of Gypsies around South and Central America became known,although anthropologists differ as to how and when the Gypsies got there.Moreover some records indicates that Gypsies may have been present in Canada and the United Statesa as early as colonial times.however,the main migration of Gypsies into continental America occurred during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,coinciding with the Rumanian emancipation....."

As far back as I can remember Jats are just drunken bums, and because they are so drunk you find them sleeping on PARK BENCHES AND PAVEMENTS.

Give it a rest, guys. All Punjabis are great: Jats, non-Jats, hindu, sikh... Like the song "Punjabi #1"!!!! While we are bickering here, rest of India is profiting by getting the best industries into their states.

All Punjabis need to unite and keep Punjabis No. 1!!!

SOURCE>>> "Gypsy Lifestyles",John B. Mclaughlin,Lexington,Massachusetts,Toronto,Copyright 1980.

Folks,
Here is a project.Go to any good library. Under the Gypsy section,pick up randomly any good book on Gypsies and you will find Jats mentioned as the forefathers of Gypsies,if that particular book discusses Gypsy origins.

Here are quotes from one more book on Gypsies.Refer to source above. :

Page 1 of Mclaughlin's book says this: "...The Gypsies are not generally a literate people...The Gypsy word for outsider is Gadjo;plural is Gadje...What is known from their background comes from three sources;linguistic evidence;European documents such as edicts,decrees,or church and court records;and the ancient literature of the Gadje that makes refrences to Gypsies.

It is conceded by most anthropologists that the Gypsies originated in North West India from the tribe of the Jats.......However it appears certain that the Gypsies travelled to the Middle-East because their language contrains traces of Persian,Kurdish and Armenian.Some evidence exists that this migration started to take place around 800 A.D.....These Gypsies are known all over the Middle-East even today as Zatts or Jats.....Some bands travelled to Turkey,then to Greece(again linguistic traces of Turkish and Greek can be found in the Gypsy dialect.)Others may have wondered across North Africa and then jumped over to the European continent via Crete and Sicily.Those entering Europe via Turkey probably reached the continent first and wondered throughout the balkhans.Many became semisedentary,while others continued their nomadic way of life.

The first record of Gypsies in Western Countries dates from fourteenth century documents of the Roman Catholic Church.No one knows if these Gypsies came from the Balkhans,Crete or Sicily,but their dark complexions,strange garb,and yet stranger speech set them apart from local inhabitants.French documents a century later show that the Gypsies were in Paris in 1427.In Paris,the Gypsies immediately begin their games of palmistry and fortune telling and apparently separated enough Frenchmen from their money to cause the Bishop of Paris to issue an edict that anyone caught having his palm read or fortune told would be excommunicated by the Church.French troops were ordered to keep the Gypsies out and were allowed a free hand to accomplish this purpose.Man..y Gypsies were murdered,many others imprisoned.

no matter where they went,the Gypsies were met with attitudes similar to those of the French.No doubt much of the hostility was caused by the Gypsies themselves,whose lifestyle of begging,petty theft,and swindling placed them at loggerheads with the local inhabitants.There were also rumors of the Gypsies kidnapping children.Queen Elizabeth 1 ordered all Gypsies expelled from England.For many years the Dutch prohibited the Gypsies from crossing their borders,as did the swiss.Sweded evoked the death penalty for any male Gypsy found wandering about their countryside,and Norway confiscated the craft of anyone foune to be bringing Gypsies into the Country.In Italy,the Gypsies were kept constantly on the move,and in Spain,they fell prey to the inquision.Gypsies found in Germany and Austria were whipped...."

I see pissed drunk Jatts every Friday and saturday night in Malton and Brampton,they throw up and peuk all over their wives and kids,who have nowhere to hide their faces.They usually end up on the PAVEMENT.

this is for the non-Indian students:A frank synopsis of the condition of Jats in India.;

... .Most Jats in India are loosely called "Hindus",although proper Hindus have never accepted them as such.Next in number are the "Muslim" Jats followed by "Sikh" Jats.Jats are Shudras,or the lowest caste people.The three other castes are Brahmin,Kshastriya,Vais.These three castes are called "twice-born".Shudras traditionally are workers in fields,nomads,and any group of people that engages in a polluting occupation.The law of Manu prescribed strict rules to keep Shudras away from proper Hindu society.Shudras could only serve the upper three castes as servants, http;//www.indiancultureonline.com/Mystica/html/shudra.htm. .Col. Sleeman,a Britisher, says that Jats are "known everywhere as low-caste or no caste Hindus."

It must be noted that the majority of Jats of India,those living in U.P.,Gujerat,Rajasthan,Haryana,are socially very very backward.In states like Gujerat and certain areas of Rajasthan, they are considered as a scheduled caste and many are engaged in leather work even today.ref: http://www.tharparkar.sdnpk.org/hc.htm Jats in these four states are primarily poor peasants or nomadic herdsmen,workers in embroidery,leather and other demeaning occupations.They also have very primitive looking facial features,are very dark complexioned and socially,economically and intellectually backward.Note the dark complexions and primitive features of these Jat women of Jamnagar(two pictures):
http://www.changemakers.net/journal/01october/ray.cfm

Even in the Punjab,where Jats claim to be prosperous,they are today classified as a backward caste,needing social assistance from the government(OBC).Jats in Punjab are primarily farmers and not nomadic herdsmen,(unlike states like Gujerat where they are still primarily nomadic).They ofcourse have little political and economic power in Punjab.All aspects of Punjabi government are controlled strictly by the Upper Castes from New Delhi.In Punjab too,Jats come in various colours,shapes and sizes.For example,of all Punjabi castes they are generally considered to be darkest complexioned.For example,Maharaja Ranjit Singh was black and short. He probably was one of the ugliest men that ever graced God's good Earth.It is said that many a man or woman left the Maharaja's presence with a heavy feeling in his heart,because their souls were troubled by his exceedingly ugly looks.It was difficult to look upon him,to say the least.His mistress once frankly asked him why he was so ugly,but he evaded the issue. Notice below the picture of a group of Jat Sikhs and their black colour:
http://cathymerrill.com/picture.php3?pic=206&num=6
Notice that Hans Raj Hans,a famous Chamar singer, is fairer and has a more erect carriage than MOST Jats of the Punjab.(Anthropologists know that originally Jats and Chamars were from the same stock due to their almost similar physical characteristics,last names,similar Shudra status etc..)These examples can be compounded.In fact,the most decorated Sikh infantry fighting unit during the British Raj was the exclusively Chamar Light infantry,which Sunny Singh himself posted a picture of,claiming it unwittingly as a Jat unit, until he was corrected.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0058.jpg

On June 14,2001,Sunny posted this picture and message(ref. at messages/1/5921)with regards this exclusively Chamar unit,saying,"Sikh Jats and a few non-Jats" and "Here are some pics. to witness the physical characteristics of Jats." I dont blame him,Punjabi Jats and Punjabi Chamars are identical looking.....

Blessings......

I see pissed drunk Jatts every Friday and saturday night in Malton and Brampton,they throw up and peuk all over their wives and kids,who have nowhere to hide their faces.They usually end up on the PAVEMENT.

http://www.romani.org/rishi/rnames.html

"Zott.Jaut or Zott is the name by which the Gypsies were known to the Arabs and which they bear in Damascus even at the present day.The Arab historian Hamza of Ispahan who wrote half a century before Firdousi says that 12 000 musicians sent to Behram Gour from India were called Zott.In the Arabic dictionary al-kamus,this entry occurs as follows:'ZOTT Arabicized from JATT,a people of Indian origin.The word might be pronounced Zatt with equal correctness.' In the lexicon Mohit we read,'Zott, a race from India;arabicized from Jatt.' "
This leaves us with no doubt that Zott = Jat.
Best Wishes...

P.S.Only intelligent counter arguments with solid refrences and reliable historical web links,please.This is a very serious discussion of Jat/Gypsy history only.

Note to Anon. of 8.02 pm Nov.23,
I will not be distracted by your cheap Gypsy tricks.I will continue teaching truthfully,with full refrences and web links,the latest on Jat/Gypsy history,whether you like it or not.I will just ignore your abusive and silly posts in future.....This is a serious history only.If you cannot bring intelligent views,web links and full refrences into this discussion,you are wasting my time and making a fool of yourself..Intelligent people provide proofs and serious arguments for thir claims,fools heap only insults.Now, sit back and learn something intelligent:

SOURCE>http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_5.doc

Source>http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_1.doc

,"The Panjabi Jat first appeared in Indian history as a nomad,alternately shepherd,robber,and temporary tiller of ground.....It appears probable from the appearance and other pecularities of the race that the Jats are connected by consanguinity with that pecular race the Gypdies."

Also from the above refrences,"Dr. trumpp has clearly pointed out the close resemblence between the European Gypsies and the Jats of the Indus...." I recomend a full read.

why the huffing and puffing blacko rahul?

you can never get away from the FACTS that ONLY HINDUS are gypsies so learn to accept it gracefully.

you are a typical gypsy hindu and thats why you are here and not on hindu thread! gotcha!

you cheap little play on the word ROMA is only for those morans like you!

only an idiot pavementwallah and black adder like you would try to convinve anybody that ROMA PIZZAS is like ROMA.

see its part of hindu/gypsy logic to see the ROM in everything!a hindu gypsy trait and as usual a cheapp one.

when the black bihari tried that little trick he wasnt reckoning on showing the extent of his limited schooling(if at all)

Italian words being passed off as ROM.Lord love him...he is one sick and thick dude!

black spots and other supersitions and gypsy hindu stuff just been passed off to sikhs but they are bona fida daily life for 100 % of hindus as the links show.

And as the links show that hindus are black africans pretending to be bloody aryans!take a look !

I will be posting many links to educate you about these low class relics.

Folks,

Your cheap attempts at underming Jat/Roma history will not work.Jat/Roma history is a reality.Learn to live with it gracefully..You can huff and puff all you like, but Western educated scholars have CONFIRMED this beautiful history, with over 1000 years of varifiable linguistic,sociloogical,anthropological,blood group,physical and other SOLID evidences!! .Your cheap efforts CANNOT and WILL NOT undermine the beautiful Jat/Gypsy history.In fact,there are MORE SOLID TANGABLE evidences for Jat/Gypsy history than for any Scythian connection with Jats.

The defeated and wondering people without a homeland of their own,with no political or economic power in India ,no culture,language,science or art will never be able to deny this beautiful history of these lovely Gypsys of the World.

Best Wishes.

P.S. Jats,you can run away from most things.But one thing is certain,you WILL NEVER be able to run away from yourselves(Roma).

Here is a quick list of just a few British military Officers and British Gentlemen,all of them superb experts in fields like anthropology,linguistics etc., who all came to the conclusion,after years of keen research, that Jats are Gypsies or Roma:

1 General Walter Scott
2 Col. Sleeman
3 Col. Dunsterville
4 Capt.(Dr.) Newbold
5 Lt. Woods
6 Capt.Trumpp
7 A.W. Hughes
8 Bishop Pococke
9 Mr.Andrew Wilson
10 Dr.Burnard Davis

some jats in this country also own the chain store

DOMINO PIZZAS!

a bit like ROMA PIZZAS.

PIZZAS ARE ITALIAN in case the hindu nerd living in sewers and pavements havent heard!

ROMA is ITALIAN for ROME.

ROME IS THE ENGLISH name for ROMA,the capital of ITALy folks.

NAPLES is the ENGLISH but NAPOLI is the Italian.

Venice is English but VInceza the Italian.

Florence is the English but Firenze the Italian.

Just thought the dumbell black rahul the pavement hindu needs to get some fresh air but you know that these gypsies/hindus dont believe in facts but live on myths, distortions and bollywood films.

good night to all sikhs,jats and punjabis.
may GOD bless you one and all!

okay folks dont forget to check out the links about the hindu pavement gypsy population and their deep rooted supersitions.


the blck rahul anonymous cracks me up with his ways about the BLACK spots and other hindu relics of hindu witchcraft.

blackie fella rahul tries very hard to heep these things on sikhs and jats but these are just a few links which remind us that these are HINDU things,if you dont already know from practical expereience of living in india as i did.

bahman and hindus are the gypsies by every trait,of culture,occupation,religion,ethnic origin and language plus history.

it wont do rahul any good to post messages with substitted words nor links that merely speculate that any number of indian races could be but hindus definately were!

he forgets that altho he is unable to read amongest other things that sikhs and jats can!

speculation is not fact but bahman gypsy traits match hindu banjaras and all these are hindus.

i shall be posting many more actual facts regarding these hindu blackies......notice the african look of 95% of all hindus as seen on the our planet link!


one last thing---i had to laugh at desperate dan here and his play on ROMA pizzas!

very funny considering that PIZZAS are ITALIAN and ROMA is the ITALIAN word for ROME as in the capital city!

intelligent people would say thats very good business sense and appropriate and the laugh is on the resident sewer rat the black rahul anonymous.

good day to all jats,punjabis and sikhs!

More specific,relevant and identical connections between Gypsy and Jat superstition:

Charles Leland states in page 145 of his book,'Gypsy Sorcery and Fortunetelling',"A male Gypsy child born immediately after three female children is considered a curse to the whole household...I have mentioned the importance which they attach to being born a seventh or twelfth child.The seventh consecutive gilr child is considered blessed with great supernatural powers...."

Sikh Culture web link says,
"A child of the other sex born after three consecutive children of one sex is considered unlucky.Thus a boy born after three girls or a girl after three boys is unlucky.The girl is unlucky for the father and the boy for the mother..."

Attn;Anon. your post on Nov.23 3.50 pm,

All indications are that it is the Jats who are Gypsies.Please read carefully all my previous links.Even the 2001 version of the Probert Encyclopaedia confirms this.As you know, encyclopaedia's only make statements which are supported by a preponderance of evidences.And the Probert is one of the most comprehensive and well researched encyclopaedias' in the whole World.Encyclopaedias also list only the most important characteristics of a people,event or circumstance.In the case of Jats,one of the most important characteristics of Jats is that they are the forefathers of Roma,as Probert Encyclopaedia saw fit to specifically mention it.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM ref.#JAT

Best Wishes..

P.S. Just some light humor....I saw a Jat owned Pizza store the other day called Roma Pizza.--This obviously does not prove anything on its own,but I just cracked up laughing when I saw the sign in bold red letters.--What an irony!Anyhow, for scientific proofs of Jat/gypsy origins,please see my previous posts on this thread.....

okay folks back to my pet projects of the gypsy hindus of the pavement fame and their obsession with black spots and other strange rituals which pass for witchcraft anywhere else but these weirdos call it religion.


my links also show you that the black spot on forehead to ward off the evil eye is a hindu thing from day one to now.

they also do many other things to pacify the evil spirits or malefics.

that includes black spots,offering food,splashing water on various plants and themselves.

95% of all hindus do this.live daily by the stars and supertitions now read the links


http://www.bethany.com/profiles/a_code/30hindu.html


http://www.winmagazine.org/issues/issue21/win21c.htm


READ CLEARLY ABOUT THE BLACK SPOT.ITS A HINDU EVERY DAY THING AND PART OF THEIR GYPSY ORIGINS.ASTROLOGY TOO.AYUVEDIC AND NATURAL MEDICATION IS ANOTHER>


see here what 95% of all hindus look like and their pavement abodes and begging modes aka again their gypsy origins and links.

http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/122/arputham.html


now i am positive that HITLER who hindu anonymous greatly admires would be chuffed to be part of the ARYAN race with these specimens!


more like african pygmies!

anyway those links show supersitions and black spots belong to the hindu peoples only.they do it today and i have seen these blackie rahul like beggars do that all over india.

they beg and cheat like rahul does here.

THATS THE GYPSY IN THEM.


now if the hindu blackie anonymous(rahul in other words! does not like it here-----he can keep his promise and go elsewhere!

i will be staying bcuz this is a jat thread and i like it here.i see that blackie rahul does too bcuz he is unable to carry out his own threat to set up another thread!

as i say,it makes to damm proud to be a jat.

but i will be posting a lot about these miserable darkie hindus to make you understand why they are rightly obsessed with us FAIR and BEAUTIFUL JATS!

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL JATS <PUNJABIS AND SIKHS!

A quote from Dr. Leland taken from his work 'Gypsy sorcery and Fortune telling'1962,

"There are many good reasons for believing that the greatest portion of Gypsy magic was brought by the Jats from the East or India.This is specially true as regards those now dwelling in Eastern Europe.And it is certainly interesting to observe that among these people there is still extant,on a very extended scale indeed,a Shamanism which seems to have come from the same Altaic source which was found of yore among the Accadiab Babylonian,Etruscan and Scythian races,and Indian hill tribes.This,the religion of the drum and the demon as a disease--or devil doctoring--will be found fully illustrated in many curious ways in these pages...."

Note: My profuse memory has allowed me to link clearly these connections between Gypsy and Punjabi superstitions, as I can remember a whole text exactly just by reading it once.It was not difficult at all for me to extract the pertinent superstitions from Leland's 250 page book...Dr. Leland must have understood these connections very well also,that is one of the reasons,I believe, why he started his introduction by saying that "Most authoritative opinion now holds that verifiable Gypsy history begins with the bold,horse-riding tribe of Jats..." He also calls them "warrior outcastes."

These similarities in superstitions are but one of the many elements that proofs Jat/Gypsy origins.The other elements are historical data,ie.Muslim chronicles,Firduasi,Mohit,Al Kamus etc,linguistic evidences which confirm close associations between Jat lingo and Romany,blood group evidences,specifically A and AB and ABO blood group polimorphosis,skull measurments,historical evidences as per Jerechek and Chekov,etc....I hope the information provided by my posts helps those serious students who need it.Use it well,honestly and for a good purpose.I suggest you get a copy of Leland's book and cross reference the material against the Sikh Culture link at http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm I am quite sure that there are no errorrs in facts though....

Best Wishes.

More specific similarities between Gypsy and punjabi peasant culture:

Dr. Leland writes,"The boar's tooth is used by Gypsys as a strong charm to drive away evil portents.....Eating pork keeps evil spirits away from the individual."('gypsy sorcery and fortune Telling',pg.103)

Sikh Culture web link:

"Eating pork or wearing the teeth of a pig round the neck protects a person from the evil eye and witchcraft."

Another specific and exact similarity between Gypsy and Punjabi peasant cultural superstition.Observe:

Gypsy superstition:

Dr. Leland writes,"Likewise,it is lucky to meet with a woman carrying a jug full of water,but unlucky yet if it is empty."('Gypsy sorcery and Fortunetelling',pg.130)

Sikh culture web link: http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm

"If one comes across a woman carrying a pitcher of water it is supposed to bring good luck."

More Specific similarities between Jat peasant and Gypsy:

Gypsy superstition:

Dr. Leland writes in his book,"If a virgin Gypsy woman procreates during the new full Moon,she will likely give birth to a handsome male child."('Gypsy Sorcery and Fortune Telling,pg.133)

Punjabi peasant superstition:
Sikh Culture web link:
"If a newly-married woman sees the new Moon regularly,she will deliver a male child as handsome as the Moon."

Notice that the similarities in the superstitions are very great between both cultures,almost identical.I challenge anyone to provide similar examples of of closeness between Gypsys and any other group.These are not just vague or general similarities,they are similar in form,conrent,intent and ritual....

I am forming a new link entitled Origins and History of the Romany people.All serious intellectuals are invited to partake of this wonderful Jat/Gypsy history.

Regards.....

Did you hear that Bin Laden killed his wife.
He looked up her skirt and saw .............

BUSH.

Dr. Leland calls Jats "warrior outcastes".He further states,
" Attitudes towards the Gypsies fall roughly into two categories.There are those whop are attracted to what may be called the European Gypsy's Jat qualities--his flamboyant talents and his exotic aura of far places and close affinity with nature...In contrast,are those who,seeing only the poorer aspects of the Gypsie's heritage,consider 'filthy packrat',a truer epithet;and have sought to eradicate his way of life....either through execution,deportation...."

Anon. nov. 21,8.06pm,

What you have done in your posts is to use one general 'similarity' and attempted to draw an unacceptable connection through it.Obviously, in order for there to be a real connection,there must be specific,unique and remarkable similarities. For example,specific and remarkable similarities exist between Gypsy and Punjabi peasant superstitions; As an example,(a)both Gypsy and Punjabi peasants use an old shoe in an atteppt to drive away epilepsy.This is a very specific and remarkable connection.(b)Both Gypsy and Jat wome are not supposed to move during a solar and lunar eclipse.Another very specific connection.(c)Both Gypsy and Punjabi peasants use 'nazatbutts',and specifically,pigs tooth to drive away enchantments.Another specific connection.(d)Both Gypsy and Punjabi Peasants have an identical ritual involving the eradication of fever,by either shaking a tree seven times or going round it seven times, inorder to transfer the disease to the tree.Very specific in method,objective and intent.These examples can be compunded ad infinitum...General connections cannot be applied because they can be held in common by many peoples and tribes..The black dot used in Gypsy and Punjabi peasant Children is an attempt to prevent the evil eye and is used as a superstition.In Hindu Aryan culture,it is very rarely a black dot and more important its intent and purpose is not superstition.It is rarely used in Children,and the colour is seldom black, whereelse in Gypsy and Jat lore it is always black and sometimes hidden behind the ear lobe .Usually adult women use it and its purpose is different.On the other hand,the black dot in Gypsy and Jat culture is similar in all aspects,eg.it is always black ,it is used for purposes of magic,it is used mainly on children,etc..

Also,I was not able to access most of your links .I hope you now understand how real scholarship works.

Best wishes friend.

SOURCE>>> "Gypsy sorcery and fortune telling",Charles Godfrey Leland,New Hyde Park,New York,Copyright 1962 by University Books,inc.

This is what the Princeton and Harvard educated Dr.Leland says about the commonly accepted notion of Jat/gypsy origins, in his introduction;

"Most authoritative opinion now holds that verifiable Gypsy history begins with the bold,horse-riding tribe of Jats,an Indo-European race expelled in the course of the religious wars that chronically raked India,with special ferocity between the tenth and twelfth centuries.These warrior outcastes were forcibly removed from India by the invading Muslim armies...."


On another note;

It must be noted that although the Khatri Gurus tried to remove superstition,witchcraft,divination etc. from the peasants of Punjab,it did not work.Instead of listening to their Gurus and becoming less superstitious,these simple Punjabi peasants actually started associating miraculous powers with their Gurus themselves,who naturally condemned these practices.!!This is what the Sikh Culture link says:
SOURCE>http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm

"In the Punjab,it is believed that the control of natural powers is one of the possessions of the saints....Stories of miraculous powers are associated with every pir,jogi,and saint of repute,including Sikh Gurus,though they condemned these powers..."

"Beliefs and superstitions are deep rooted habits and fancies.The majority of the population of Punjab being rural for centuries these people of the Villages,bereft of education and contact with awakened communities,were under the spell of superstition and witchcraft.It is only recently that because of the opening of schools in villages and increase of literacy that the people have become somewhat rational."

Also, consult the 2001 version of Probert encyclopaedia:

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM #JAT

It confirms that Jats are related to Romany.

okay people!

i thought i would start paying some little attention to the hindu gypsy superstitions as pointed out by black rahul/anonymous!

(i wont neglect my pet project...pavement hindus)

i just have another tiresome project which might take me into the next century cuz there are so many links!


HINDU GYPSY SUPERSITIONS.RE EVIL EYE BLACK SPOTS ON FOREHEADS AND ARMLUTS!


http://www.winmagazine.org/issue/issue21/win21c.htm


http://www.bethany.com/profile/a_code/30hindu.html

this one tells you how hindus are contolled daily by witchdoctors,evil eye fears,astrologers,myths and priests.


http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_8/0027html


http://www.rajasthanindia.com/commonindiantraditions.html


these are just 4 links to show where gypsy links belong now and in the past- HINDU INDIA ONLY!

okay people!

i thought i would start paying some little attention to the hindu gypsy superstitions as pointed out by black rahul/anonymous!

(i wont neglect my pet project...pavement hindus)

i just have another tiresome project which might take me into the next century cuz there are so many links!


HINDU GYPSY SUPERSITIONS.RE EVIL EYE BLACK SPOTS ON FOREHEADS AND ARMLUTS!


http://www.winmagazine.org/issue/issue21/win21c.htm


http://www.bethany.com/profile/a_code/30hindu.html

this one tells you how hindus are contolled daily by witchdoctors,evil eye fears,astrologers,myths and priests.


http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_80027html


http://www.rajasthanindia.com/commonindiantraditions.html


these are just 4 links to show where gypsy links belong now and in the past- HINDU INDIA ONLY!

okay people!

i thought i would start paying some little attention to the hindu gypsy superstitions as pointed out by black rahul/anonymous!

(i wont neglect my pet project...pavement hindus)

i just have another tiresome project which might take me into the next century cuz there are so many links!


HINDU GYPSY SUPERSITIONS.RE EVIL EYE BLACK SPOTS ON FOREHEADS AND ARMLUTS!


http://www.winmagazine.org./issue/issue21/win21c.htm


http://www.bethany.com/profile/a_code/30hindu.html

this one tells you how hindus are contolled daily by witchdoctors,evil eye fears,astrologers,myths and priests.


http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_80027html


http://www.rajasthanindia.com/commonindiantraditions.html


these are just 4 links to show where gypsy links belong now and in the past- HINDU INDIA ONLY!

i have to agree with anonymous about the black spot.

hindus permentently wear the black spot on the forehead to ward off the evil eye1

they change the color from time to time for men and women.they give it fancy names but its a black dot okay and no one but hindus wear dots and dashes!

see all those people at the kumbh mela and ash on the forehead and matted hair like rope and rastas?

thats hindus for you!

whats that red poweder thing they put on their head.it looks like blood .

another one of there gypsy supersitions is cutting of the boy childs hair at one years old and keeping the locks!i wont bore you with the details.

they always have the resident gypsy astrologer come in to tell them about the moon and stars at birth.
another gypsy supersition and they think that they can alter the effect of the planets on a persons life by performer stupid things like throwing rice over the shoulder or wearing a taweez or other such nonsense.anything to con a fast buck.

thats hindu life for ya.

another thing is that cobblers kavahchaut.
they get the signal to eat on seeing the moon!

sounds like islamic ramadan to me!

hindu life is full of nonsense and twofacedness and thats why it was rejected by SIKHS.

there are thousands of stupid instances of the hindu gypsy sentiments i can give you but they bore me as much as i am sure you must be bored but slowly and surely i will get thru with them.

i ask that JATS bear with me on this.

hindus like blackie rahul can carry on writing as anonymous or whatever name he likes but he still dont explain his obsession with JATTS!

its simple....he is black a gypsy and is wandering as they do.!

take a look at these pavement hindus which is 95% of hindu india.

this is your typical hindu.

http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/122/arputham.html

apparently folks there is even such a thing as the


INDIA NATIONAL SLUM DWELLERS ASSCIATION!


check out more on hindu india gypsies living on pavements

http://www.hsd.ait.ac.th/bestprac/sparc.htm

http://www.oneworld.org/ni/issue276/sense.htm


that explains the black hindu rahuls obsession with beautifu fair JATTS!

Observe:

Gypsy Custom,
Charles Leland(pg.102-103)

"To protect the child against the 'evil eye' it is hung with charmed amulets....And these must be observed on all occasions....The pig is also a common amulet among the Gypsies....The boar's tooth,is an ancient Gypsy charm.I have found them attached to chatelaines and bunches of keys,especially among the Austrian Gypsys...The tusk is properly a male emblem;a pig is sometimes placed on the base....They are regarded as protective against 'malocchio'--a general term fot the 'evil eye'--especially for women during pregnancy,and as securing plenty ,prosperity..."

Sikh culture web link:

"Some women make their children wear round their necks nazzarbattus,protectors from the 'evil eye',for this purpose,or sometimes for the same purpose hang pig's teeth round their neck."

Observe:

Gypsy Custom.
Charles Leland pg.55,
"To prevent the 'evil eye',or enchantment,the 'wise woman' takes the child in her lap,and stamps its forehead with a round black or dark mark......"

Sikh culture web link:
"To protect a child from the evil eye,a black mark is invariably put on its forehead......"

Observe the similarity:

Charles Leland(pg. 51),
Gypsy

"There is a strange,mysterious affinity between Gypsies and the moon.A wonderful legend,which they certainly brought from India since in it Mekran is mentioned as the place where its incident occurred,details that there,owing to the misrepresentations of a sorcerer,the Gypsy leader Chen,was made to mary his sister Guin,or Kan,which brought a curse........which declares that the Sun,because he once violated and still seeks to seduce his sister,the Moon,continues follows her,beibg destined to wonder forever....Moon worship is very ancient....Dr. wlislocki simply remarks on this subjectthat the moon has,in the Gypsy incantation 'ein Phallische Bedeutung.-- hence their connection with agriculture,productivness,and fertility,or the generative principle,and from this comes the beneficent influence of horse-shoes,boars tusks,crabs claws,and pieces of coral resembling them...."

Sikh Culture web link:
"....In some myths,the Sun and Moon are brother and Sister....According to one myth,the Sun is doing penance by burning in eternal heat because its mother cursed it,wherelse the moon enjoys its mothers blessings in permanent closeness.."

Observe the similarity:

Gypsy custom:
Charles leland,
"When a Gypsy woman is with child,she is forbidden from moving during a solar or lunar eclipse......"

Sikh culture web link:
"During a solar or lunar eclipse,a pregnant woman is not supposed to move."

Observe again the similarity:

Gypsy custom;
Charles Leland,pg.34
"The Shamanic worship of water as a spirit is extremely ancient....The water spirits play a leading part in Gypsy mythology.The following Gypsy charm,to consecrate a swarm of bees,was also given to me by Prof. Dragomanoff,who had learned it from a peasant...."

Refer to Sikh Culture web link;

"....sometimes when a flood is feared,offerings in the form of an animal sacrifice are made to the river god....If the buffalo is drowned it means that the god has accepted the offering...before laying the foundation of a well,a coconut smeared in Vermilin...is offered to the water god...."

Observe again the similarity between Punjabi peasant Culture and Gypsy:

Charles Leland(pg. 19),
"If a barren woman will walk starke-naked by the light of the full Moon round a field or a house,she will conceive."

Web link on sikh culture in Punjab,
"...Women who have no children...wait for some auspicious day,go to a road crossing,bath there at midnight under the light of the stars...."

Observe again the similarity:

Charles Leland(pg.25),
"A sufferer of epilepsy is asked to sew some of his hair into an old shoe.Thereby he will prevent future outbreaks."

Refer to web link on Sikh Culture in Punjab,
"A fit of epilepsy can be cured by making the patient smell an old shoe."

Refer to web link on Sikh culture in Punjab,under Witchcraft, for the following quote:

"In the Punjab,a woman expert in witchcraft is called a dami.The witch developes certain occult faculties through incantation and possesses power over an evil spirit which obeys her commands.It is believed that her evil look is very effective and can do immense harm to it's victims.That is why mother's hide their children from the gaze of such women."

Hi Anti-Jat Guy,

I understand the feelings of the defeated-- so please be not too emotional about those 60 websites on the Jat history! Best wishes.

XXX,
Can you tell us the name of the person who wrote those silly articles?

Hi Guys,

Here is a website that lists about 60 other websites concerned (directly or indirectly) with Jat/Scythian/Saka history--- particularly in the land of defeated people!--:


http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=soc.culture.indian&as_uauthors=saka%40my-dejanews.com&num=100


Best wishes to all.

Observe the similarity:

source>>>Charles Leland,"Gypsy sorcery and Fortune Telling".

Gypsy superstition.
"Another cure for a fever.The sufferer goes in the forest and finds a young tree.The patient shakes it seven times with all his might and recites an incantation.Then the fever passes into the tree."(p.g. 17,Leland)


Sikh peasant superstition in Punjab:
source>>> http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm

"If anyone suffers from intermitten fever,he should take a thread and go around a pippal tree seven times reciting an incantation.That way the fever will be passed on to the tree."

Charles leland:

"Shamanism seems to have had a Turanian origin somewhere in Central Asia..and to have spread with his magic drum,and song,and stinking smoke,exorcising his fiends all over the face of the the Earth....But the Shamanism with its amulets,exorcisms,and smoke,its noises,more or less musical,of drums and enchanted bells,and its main belief that all the ills of life come from the action of evil spirits,was deeply based among the inferior races and the inferior scions of the Cromagnon stock.....the beautiful culture of the early Aryans rejected Shamanism,just as the stately monotheism of the Shemites did likewise,and the other more advanced ingenious developments of the idea of a creative cause....The Gypsy's came,historically speaking,very recently from India out of the lower castes of Hindooism.It has been carefully observed that Gypsy's are NOT of the religion of Brahma,much less of Buddha or of Mahommad,and that among the lower castes,the primaeval Altaic Shamanism,with even earlier witchcraft,still holds its own."

Charles leland:

"Shamanism seems to have had a Turanian origin somewhere in Central Asia..and to have spread with his magic drum,and song,and stinking smoke,exorcising his fiends all over the face of the the Earth....But the Shamanism with its amulets,exorcisms,and smoke,its noises,more or less musical,of drums and enchanted bells,and its main belief that all the ills of life come from the action of evil spirits,was deeply based among the inferior races and the inferior scions of the Cromagnon stock.....the beautiful culture of the early Aryans rejected Shamanism,just as the stately monotheism of the Shemites did likewise,and the other more advanced ingenious developments of the idea of a creative cause....The Gypsy's came,historically speaking,very recently from India out of the lower castes of Hindooism.It has been carefully observed that Gypsy's are NOT of the religion of Brahma,much less of Buddha or of Mahommad,and that among the lower castes,the primaeval Altaic Shamanism,with even earlier witchcraft,still holds its own."

Source>>> Charles Godfrey Leland,refer to Anon. posting on Nov.21,12.36 am. for full bibliography.

"Gypsies,as I have said,have done more than any other race or class on the face of the Earth to disseminate among the multitude a belief in fortune-telling,magical or sympathetic cures,amulets and such small sorceries as now find a place in folk-lore....There are good reasons to believe that the greatest portion of Gypsy magic was brought by the Jats from the East or India.This is specially true as those now dwelling in Eastern Europe.And it is certainly interesting to observe that among those people there is still extant,on a very extanded scale indeed,a Shamanism which seems yo have come from the same Tartar-Altatic source which was found of yore among the Accadian-Babylonians,Etruscan and Scythian races,including the Indian hill-tribes.This,the religion of the drum and demon as a disease--or devil doctoring--will be found fully illustrated in many curious ways in these pages.....Their creeds are legends.Most of them are children and grandchildren of thieves who have been brought up from their youth in the densest ignorance,and who,constantly at war with society,seek the aid of those powers of darkness in the dread efficacy of which they have an unshaken confidence......"

SOURCE>>> "Gypsy Sorcery and Fortune Telling",Charles Godfrey leland,University books,New Hyde Park,New York,Copyright,1962.

It must be noted that there is not a town in England,for instance,or for that matter in Europe,in which witchcraft is not extensively practised by Gypsies.In a previous posting,I showed that divination,witchcraft,fortunetelling etc. are also very prevalent among the Jat peasants of Punjab, even today.Please click this web link for a full read. http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm
Even in the age of the industrial revolution which began in the eighteenth century,ironically,the Gypsies still zealously mantain their lore and superstition.It is a similar situation with the Jats of North West India.The Promethean figures of that epoch--Darwin,Frazer,Freud had little impact on these peoples.In their stubborn zeal to mantain their 'sacred traditions and customs' and ethnocentric outlook of life,Jat and Gypsy alike successfully resisted all modern concepts of rationalism and the scientific concept in favour of 'esoteric lore'. Superstition plays a vital,sometimes overpowering role,in Jat and Gypsy families even today.

Leland,in his book,contends that "the Gypsies,to a greater extent than anyone was yet aware,have been for at least a thousand years the international "colporteurs" of this witchcraft,swapping memories,magics and medicines with most of the World's peasantry in the course of their own long westward trek,as low-caste Hindu exiles from India,across the plateau of Afghanistan and Persia into Syria and Egypt,and thence,after a pause of unknown duration,northward across the mountains of the Caucasus into the Balkhans,Greece,and eventually medieval Western Europe,where their itinerary was further extended,both forcibly and voluntarily,to the distantr shores of the American,even the Australian,continents as well....."

"Until the ethnologists began,in the late nineteenth century,to piece together the Gypsy jigsaw from the evidence of physical characteristics,tribal myths and,most significantly,the study of language root and language addenda(aided by whatever miscellaneous observations could be gleaned from older historians),nothing was known,least of all by the Gypsies themselves,of Romany origins.("Romany" is from Rom, male Gypsy.)MOST AUTHORITATIVE OPINION NOW HOLDS THAT VERIFIABLE GYPSY HISTORY BEGINS WITH THE BOLD,HORSE-RIDING TRIBE OF JATS,AN INDO-EUROPEAN RACE EXPELLED IN THE COURSE OF THE RELIGIOUS WARS THAT CHRONICALLY RAKED INDIA,with special ferocity between the tenth and twelfth centuries.These warrior outcasts were forcibly removed from India by the invading Muslim armies......"

"In 1417 a band of three thousand ragged nomadic Gypsies arrived in Germany on the first lap of what they claimed was a fifty year pilgrimage imposed upon them by the king of Hungary as a penance for apostasy....At any rate,having thus cleverly obtained passports from the pope,the Emperor of germany,and all the rulers of Europe to wander and beg alms for fifty years,the Gypsy band encamped nightly outside the city walls to which these documents had given them access and,capitalizing on their wild foreign looks and facility for picking up new tongues,scraped a living as they went,not only by their amalgamated tribal skills in dancing,singing,metalcraft and animal care,but also--the practice of indian necromancy,palm-reading,and sly thievery....."

"Attitudes toward the Gypsy fall roughly into two categories.There are those who are attravted to what may be called the european Gypsy's Jat qualities--his flamboyant talents and his exotic aura of far places and close affinity with nature--and who forgive him,for his charm's sake,the irregularities which force even these very admirers to label him a 'quaint pilferer.'In contrast,are those who,seeing only the poorer aspects of the Gypsy's heritage,consider 'filthy packrat',a truer epithet,and have sought to eradicate his way of life either through execution,deportation,or amelioration,according to their tempremental inclinations......"

"While still at Princeton,Leland began to write on the subject of the Gypsys....He was subsequently awarded a degree by Harvard for research on Gypsy lore.Leland's first Gypsy book was 'The English Gypsies and their Language".Next he wrote,"Word book of the Romany Language"...."

SOURCE>>>Elwood B. Trigg,"Gypsy Divinites". Citadel Pres,102 Enterprise Ave.,Secarcus,N.J.,07094. p.g. 6

"It was Pott,in his definitive work 'Die Zigeuner in Europe und Asien',published in 1844-45,who finally established that the Gypsy language,Romany,was an Indian language,and that their origins as a people could definitively be traced to the N.W. of that Country......Some continental Gypsies were known to call themselves Sinti,which confirmed their original homeland of Sind in India.What is more,some Syrian Gypsies call themselves Jats,the very same name as a great tribe living in the Valley of the Indus.....Authorities on Indian tribes have been able to form close associations between the Jats of North West India and the Gypsies of Europe...."

I would recomend a full read of this book.It goes into detail.

I hope the following historical excerpts help:

Sources>>> Mcdowell Bart,"Gypsies:Wonderers of the World." National Geographic society,1970.
Also quoted in
Ian Hancock."The development of Romani linguistics in Languages and Cultures;Studies in honor of Edgar C. polome.The Hague Monton,1988.

"According to Gheorghe,it was the practice of the Rumanians to use prisoners taken in war as slaves.Citing Grigoras as his source,he gives an example of this involving Gypsies: 'It is recorded....that thwe Moldavian prince,stephan the Great,after a victorious war with his neighbours the Wallachians,transported 17 000 Jats in order to use their labour force...."

"This has been upheld more recently by Gheorghe(1983) who confirmed that a large part of the Romany population migrated into Europe through the Caucasus and Crimea turning south into the Balkhans."

Hi Anti-Jat Guy,

Still your mumo jumbo is no help. Best wishes.

Ref: XXX,nov.20,2001,12:22pm,

XXX,

I dont mean to belittle you, but your comments are silly.

Friend,I know you love your people,but you cannot make foolish claims like that on their behalf.I really do feel sorry for you,not angry at you for making untruthful statements.

The fact of the matter is that the horse was domesticated long before Jats even existed.Jackets,trousers and leather shoes were used first by Neanderthal man.

Best Wishes.

P.S. I will not respond to you further,because your reasoning seems to be unsound....

Hi Anti- Jat Guys,

Your mumo jumbo, without any shadow of doubt, has FAILED to challenge the 2500 years' recorded history of the brave Jat warriors who have shaped our present day world-- remember Jats when you wear modern jackets and trousers, ride a horse, wear leather shoes(!).... Best wishes to all.

It must be noted that Jat origins of Gypsies is an acknowledged circumstance today because of the preponderance of evidence.Also, it is not Indian scholars who pioneered this research, but Western.The pioneering work of Jat/Gypsy origins was conducted by such esteemed Britishers as Col. Sleeman,General Walter Scott,Capt.Trumpp,Pott,Battilard,etc.Today the top scholars in Gypsy origins are all Western educated intellectuals from schools like Princeton,Oxford etc.They include Macantire,John Samson,Ralph Turner,Bercovici,Cohen,Kenrick and others.All agree that Gypsies originated from Jats.The evidence is simply overpowering.

Blessings to all.

Anonymous,I appreciate the invaluable information that you have provided so far on the origin of the Romany nations as pertains the Jats.Just to let you know, I will be using some of your web links and also book refrences for my phd. thesis due next Summer.I just had to tell you that.
The Gypsies are a good people.To quote Conrad B.,'There is more joy and more happiness,there is more poetry and deep emotion in a Gypsy camp of three ragged tents than in the largest city of our civilized world.'
Very appreciatively,truly and humbly,
rick.

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http://www.changemakers.net/journal/01october/ray.cfm

My aim is to educate and to be accurate and truthful in the process.If I garner hatred and animosity in the process,so be it.It was Thomas Huxley who said,"it is a sin to believe things without evidence." I have taken his words to heart and therefore all my claims are always made with supporting evidences.I expect the same level of commitment to truth from opposing viewpoints.

Observe from the above link two pictures of Jat women in Gujerat under the headings of;

"Women from the Jat Muslim community of Jamnagar,one of the many marginalized groups that Sethu works with" and
"Women from the nomadic Muslim Jat community of Jamnagar."...Notice at once their primitive looks and demeanour.

Some quotes from the above link:

"Gujerat is India's second most industrialized state,contributing 11 percentage of it's national income...But beneath the surface of prosperity lies another Gujerat.This other space is inhabited by peoples like kolis,Rabaris,Maldharis and Jats,Dalits and by minority groups like Muslims.Each of these communities has its rich culture and identity,but they share the common burden of being totally marginalized.They are victims of prejudice,fuelled by a caste system that discriminates.These people are proscribed from sharing in the State's development,and their very existence is barely acknowledged by officialdom.In normal times,they survive tenuously at the periphery of social security systems.During periods of upheaval,they simply fall through the gaps......."

It seems to me that the Jats, in states like Gujerat,U.P. and Haryana, still have a long way to go economically and socially.And even in the Punjab,where Jats are relatively better off than their Gujerati brethen,they are classified as an OBC caste,needing charity from the government.Many many Jat peasants are living at a subsistance level in Punjab and are barely making ends meet.(evidence for this provided previously.)Unquestionably however ,in Gujerat,Jats are a marganilized caste indeed, occupying the same status with the untouchable castes, as shown by the above link.

Best Regards.

How much alcohol did the Drunk Jat drink before he died of alcohol poisoning? Two glasses of paint thinner.

B P Maria = Bina Plakay Marun Gar

B P Maria also = Bina Pikay Marun Gar

I am wondering why there are at least 3000 links regarding hindu pavement people on any one search engine.


this confims the common veiw that 95% of ALL hindus live on pavements ,sewers and railway stations of india.

the other 5% shake bums and boobs in every khans face just to feed themselves.


it must be clear that is why all hindus are considered beggars and gypsies and we have the proof here all the time in the form of the black bihari hindu rahul.

so how come those elusive hindu mathmaticians/scientists(ha) cant work out the solution that that little probleM?

couldnt dig out a single hindu gujji out the earthquake,nor work out the place or date of the HINDU LORD RAMS birth.

oh but they are dreaming and scheming and when they can think of a date they will let the pavement hindus know!

shut up ahir from chandigarh/taran yadav

AK Singh,
There are more hindu jats than there are sikh ones.
And it is the hindu jats that suck up to the Arya Samajhis.

And fine,u can get the bhaiyas from Bihar to work in ur fields -- what of the Ahirs of Haryana ? Compare urselves to us.U aint shit! The friggin state of Haryana is derived from 'Ahir'.

Ur whole race is nothing but Yadav leftovers.

http://www.tharparkar.sdnpk.org/hc.htm

The Jats of Tharparkar district of the Thar desert in Rajasthan are engaged in leather work and are ofcourse,as a result, considered as untouchables.Refer to the above link....Some quotes:

".....Most prominent among whom in Thar are the descendants of Jat nomadic herders of Sindh who settled as leather workers and landless farm labourers for the rulers.These Jats have largely abandoned leather work,and have devoted themselves to less demeaning skills such as weaving.They have taken special advantage of the spread of education in Thar and are increasingly represented in the professional as well as in clerical positions in the developing district administration.

The Bheels in Thar also have retained the nomadic instincts of their Jat forebearers;they regularly migrate with their herds and families to the irrigated areas for seasonal labour,occupying their villages in Thar during the short planting season...."

I hope you Jats are now beginning to understand that when I say Jats are untouchables in Rajasthan and certain areas of Gujerat,I mean it in the literal sence.

Best Regards...Remember Col.Sleeman's words,"Jats are low caste or NO caste Hindus...",and "they(Jats) are still nomadic,and perhaps of old they were FULLY nomadic." etc...

Punjabis consider yadavs as nothing more than bhayias or field workers. And that is it. nothing more.
You are welcome to come over and work in our fields.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PR-forum/message/118

It seems there are OBC castes and then there ARE OBC castes.In U.P.,Jats are classified as category B OBC caste,or the lower income backward castes.They are the poor of the poor.We have already seen that the Jats of conservative Rajasthan areas and the nomadic Jats of Gujerat are classified as scheduled castes....Everyday we find something new about these Jats.. "Nothing that is hid will not be exposed.And everything truthful will be brought to light."

Within high Hindu sdociety,there is alot of ignorance about the OBC caste peoples.They tend to paint all OBC castes as Dalits.There are however subtle differences within Shudra groups themselves, which upper caste Hindus must be aware off.To the upper castes,there may not be much of a difference drawn, say ,between a Jat or Gujaar or Chamar,but to these people, there certainly is a difference.Within the Shudra quarter itself,there are imperceptible lines and differentials,and infighting among different classes of Shudras trying to be 'better' or 'higher' than another Shudra caste.It is a form of Brahminism,as it were,of the Shudras.Who ends up being king of the 'Shudras' ultimately is still,in my opinion,in the works...

Mr. Ahir,
What is the difference between class A OBC and class B OBC?.I sincerely like to know.You say,and I think rightly so, that Jats are classified as class B OBC.Is that designation same as schedulded caste?I like to know?....Also,I am inclined to believe with you that Ahir's are higher caste than Jats for the simple reason that Ahir's are practicing Hindus.Jats on the other hand have no regard for Hinduism,they are fond of eating beef etc., which irredimably pollutes them.

ahir from chandigarh=tarun yadav

Jats r loosers. u think u can rip on other hindus. well jats r jack shit in front of yadavs its a fact.
yadavs are scythic too and much evidence has been put forward but uve denied their link. even sikh authors like hukum s pawar and khushwant singh have wrote of yadav origins of the jats. but,no still not good enough for u.
face it -- ur own maharaja of patiala had the name yadavinder. not yadbinder or anything like that. clear YADAV-inder. even had a top school named after him. and what was XXX's response -- jats take the names of their surroundings. in canada u get jats with the names steven sahota and tony gill etc etc but they just as proud jats. BULL SHIT. there are no yadavs in the patiala region of malwa. nearest where they from is the haryana region around Delhi -- rewari,rohtak,gurgawa,karnal,sonipat etc. they only take yadav title 'cos a) yadavs are higher caste. FACT. see the reservation systems of Delhi & UP. Yadavs are class A OBCs [other backward castes] and Jats class B. and b) back in the days of the corrupt bahman caste system, cattle was more expensive than land and hence, yadavs were superior to jats.
everyone from cunnigham to ibbetson to current army officials rank ahirs,jats,gujjars and rajputs as martial races with common stock.
jats are intimidated by yadavs. FACT. find about gangs in haryana and delhi.
yadavs are just as big and strong no matter what major barstow and co. say ... last person to get paramveer chakra ... yogender singh yadav for kargil. best indian boxer ... dharmendra singh yadav. best indian wrestler ... pappoo yadav.
and as for kingdoms ... yadav's have had enough ... Rewari in haryana for one, and then in maharashtra during the 1200s.
yadav's boast Shivaji,king of the marathas. also boast Rao Tula Ram Ahir during the british.

so there u go!
yadavs more superior!

Hello Anonymous (below),remember we are only to help you improve your sad,lonely life with NO FRIENDS,NO FAMILY,NO JOB,NO SOCIAL LIFE.Do not waste all your free time on the internet.Just answer the questions we have posed,it is standard procedure.Dont be afraid,we are only here to help you.

http://www.rent-a-friend.com

So why not give us a call someday,when you are free.

SOURCE>>> Cohn,Werner,"The Gypsies",Wesley Publishing co.,1986.

Percentage AB and B blood group repartation table....

Roma chave %B =33.95
Jat %B = 33.82
Jodhpue %B = 34.2
Brahmin %B=38.4
Punjabi Khatri %B=40.63

Roma Chave %AB = 8.87
Jat %AB = 9.00
Jodhpur %AB = 8.00
Brahmin %AB=6.9
Punjabi Khatri 5AB = 7.96

Notice that %B and %AB blood group polimorphosis is exceeding close between Roma and Jat even today!!

The Punjabi origin of Romani is self-evident as has been confirmed by all scholars in Gypsy origins. The following information is derived from,

SOURCE>>>Cohn,Werner,"The Gypsies",Wesley Publishing co.,1986.(p.g. 44-46)

Comparitive structural analisis of Domari(a dialect of Romany) and Punjabi:

Domari(ag),Punjabi(agg),english(fire)...Dom(gora),Pun(khora),Eng(horse)....,Dom(ana),Pun(anda),Eng(egg)...Dom(angul),Pun(Ungl),Eng(finger)...Dom(astara,sitari),Pun(sitara),Eng(star)...dom(babo),Pun(bapu),eng(father),Dom(bar),Pun(phrar),Eng(brother),....Dom(ben),Pun(bhen),Eng(sister),....dom(buhu),Punjabi(bouhot),Eng(much).....Dom(yek),Pun(ik),Eng(one),..Dom(di),Pun(do),Eng(two),..Dom(trin),Pun(thin),Eng(three),...Dom(schtar),Pun(char),Eng(four),...dom(punj),Pun(punj),Eng(five)..Dom(shesh),Pun(chey),Eng(six),..Dom(heft),Pun(sat),Eng(seven),..Dom(hoscht),Pun(athst),Eng(eight)..Dom(nah),Pun(nah),Eng(nine)...Dom(dez),Pun(dez),Eng(ten).......etc.

The above is just skipping the surface.A more detailed analysis qualifies and confirms linguistic similarities within Punjabi and Sindhi Jat territorial-linguistic affinities and Romani....Most scientists have confirmed that the Romany dialects correspond perfectly with not only Punjabi,but uniquely with the dialects and synthx spoken by the Jats of North West India.Read the following web site for confirmation;
http://www.romani.org/rishi/rnames.html

Hello Anonymous

Before we process your application for FRIENDS,A JOB AND A SOCIAL LIFE,we have a few questions to ask you-

1).Do you have any FRIENDS?

2).Do you have a SOCIAL LIFE?

3).Do you have FAMILY?

4).Do you hold a steady job?

5).Were you sexually molested by your parents as a child?

6).Doesnt your ass hurt sitting on your chair ALL DAY LONG?What about your eyes,neck and hands?Do you suffer hand strains from typing 24 hours a day?


http://www.rent-a-friend.com

Remember Anonymous we are only to help you improve your life.So why not give us a call someday,when you are free.

http://www.rent-a-friend.com

Remember Anonymous we are only to help you improve your sad,lonely life with NO FRIENDS,NO FAMILY,NO JOB,NO SOCIAL LIFE.Do not waste all your free time on the internet.So why not give us a call someday,when you are free.

http://www.oneworld.org/index_oc/498/Kenrick.html

"A recent poll in Germany found that while 22 percent of those surveyed would not like to live next to a Jew and 36 percent would dislike having a Turkish neighbour,antagonism towards a Gypsy family next door rose to 68 percent.This is almost as high as the 72 percent antipathy recorded in poland in a similar inquiry."

Source>>> Cohn,Werner;"The Gypsies",wesley Publishing company,1968

"All dialects spoken by gypsy groups show Indic influences.The language of the Rom is particularly close to the Sindhi and Punjabi languages of north-West India in vocabularly,and even more so in grammer and phonology.This evidence leaves no doubt that the first Gypsies came to Europe from north West India."

"A recent count in a highly heterogeneous Sinti(Gypsy)
dialect showed that 41% of the words were of Punjabi origin."

SOURCE>>>H.A. Rose,"glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and N.W. Province"

"It is certain that the Jat stock contains not a few tribes of aboroginal descent.The Hir,Mann,Buller Jats are known as asli or original Jats,because they claim no Rajput descent.Many of the Jat tribes of the Punjab have customs which apparantly point to non-Aryan origin,and a rich and almost virgin field of investigation is here open to the ethnologist....The Jats of the south-eastern districts are termed Shivagotri,the very words which the ancient Brahmans give us as the marks of the barbarian aborigines."(Shivagotri is a refrence to any non-Aryan aboriginal person.) "In other words,Shivagotri Jats of the South-East like the Heer,Man and Buller are unasuming tribes which do not lay claim to descent from any ruling clan."

Footnote:"We may regard Shiva as the earth-god and the Shivagotri as autochthones."(H.A. Rose)

In Rajasthan,Gujerat and U.P., Jats have very primitive features.That is why Aryans did not and could not allow them in their fold.Below notice two pictures from the nomadic Muslim Jat tribe of Gujarat:

http://www.changemakers.net/journal/01october/ray.cfm

Ref. to pictures under these headings: Notice carefully the non-Aryan primitive features of these Jats.:

"Women from the nomadic Jat Muslim community of Jamnagar--one of the many marginalized groups that Setu works with."

"Women from the nomadic Muslim Jat community of Jamnagar."

Even in the Punjab,Jats are darker than most other Punjabi castes ....We know that it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between a Punjabi Chamar and a Punjabi Jat.For example,I thought Hans Raj Hans was a Jat until quite recently!...

SOURCE>>>. Liegeois,Jean-Pierre,"Gypsies:an illustrated history",26 Westbourne Grove,London,1986.

The following is taken from page 37 of the above mentioned source:

"Lexical comparisons showing the origin of the Gypsy language.

English 'to come'
Romany 'au'
Punjabi 'au'

to give
de
de

to see
dikh
dekh

to do
ker
kar

to play
khel
khel

to walk
phir
phir

thief
cor
cor

ear
kan
khan

nose
nakh
nakh

inside
andre
andar

black
kalo
kala

red
lolo
lal

one
jekh
ikk

two
duj
do

sword
tulwara
tulwar

fear
dar
dar

moon
chand
chand

sun
surj
suraj

horse
kura
khora

kill
mar
mar

hut
jhugi
jhugi etc.

"One of the classic studies investigated the Gypsy language in Wales.John Samson discovered 150 roots of English origin,as against 518 of Punjabi origin!....'

I have met many negroid skinned sharmas. Sharmas are brahmins and are found in rajasthan, up, haryana, punjab area. These brahmins are very cunning people. I personally believe that brahmins and baniyas are the root cause of all problems in India. These cunning rascals have hoarded knowledge and have kept on inventing gods. For India to rise the baniya amnd brahmin combine must be broken. I am from haryana and we hindu jats don't believe one word fromn these lowly pujaris. I am a hindu but personally i realize the absurdity of many ideas in hindu reliogion invented and dreamed off by these pujaris. We hindu jats dont care a hoot for these brahmins. All baniyas and brahmins must go down if india is to rise.
Personally I think still that dravidians are related to africans, and brahmans are white ass kissers, I dont care a f uc k what others say about this.

Source>>The quotes in my last posting from Bercovici are taken from Ch. 2 pages 10 through 16.

P.S. There was a sentence from Bercovici that impressed greatly upon me: "Humbled and despised by everybody,they(Gypsies) consider themselves above all other nations,..purer,cleaner,healthire,wiser..a race of kings and queens,with no peers on Earth,claiming even today to rule....." From time spent on this net,I have observed that this is the exact attitute of Jats on this thread as well.Remarkable! Gypsies and Jats do indeed still have a good self-image,despite being persecuted for hundreds,if not thousands of years. .How many times have we seen the childlike phrase "Jats rule" spattered all over the internet,although it is only wishful thinking.Yet it shows a certain attitude of defiance and donkey-like obstinacy on the part of Jats and Gypsy alike who also claim to be 'a pure race' and 'to rule'......

SOURCE>>> Bercovici Konrad,'The Story of The Gypsies',
J.J. Little and Ives Company,New York,1928.

Chapter 2 page 10 of the book,sub titled 'The Origin of The Gypsies', says this:

"In 1780,H.M.G. grellman,a german philologist,collected a number of words spoken by the Gypsies,and found that a third of them were of Punjabi origin.Comparing the grammatical construction of the languageof the Gypsies with the dialects spoken in India,he arrived at the conclusion that these wanderers came originally from India.Pursuing still further his studies among the principal dialects of India,Grellman discovered that the Surat dialect,spoken int the North West of India,was very much like the language spoken by the particular Gypsiy
tribe he was studying.Subsequently studies pursued by other philologistsand travellers confirmed Grellman's opinion that the cradle of these wanderers known over the World as Tziganes,Zigeuner,gypsies,czigany,Zingari,Bohemians,was also that of the tribe of the Jats,living near the mouth of the Indus river.

Pott,Bataillard,Trumpp and Sir Richard Burton arrived at the conclusion that the relation between the language spoken by the Gypsies and the language spoken by the Jats tribe in India today is so close that there could be no doubt that its root,in spite of all changes,lay in the dialect spoken in the North of India.

Attempting the solution at the same problem from a historical angle,de Gorje,another investigator,noticing that in Mohammaden chronicles there recurred frequently the name of a wandering tribe called Zotts,deduced that they were the same as Jats,and the Gypsies.

According to Arab authors and geographers,there lived in antiquity at the mouth of the Indus a tribe of roaming cattle-breeders,who raised their tents wherever their black water buffalo were grazing.The Arabs tried several times to conquer them,but were driven back every time,with heavy losses.

Under walid 1,these Zotts agreed to terms of peace.The Arab ruler,however,realized after his alliance with these wandering tribes that their faithfulness was not to be relied upon;that they would neither obey or follow of their own volition.In the year 710 he took a great number of them captive and led them forcibly to the borders of the Tigris in Kurdistan.six years later,under Yazid 2,a still greater number of captives were transported to Antioch with their cattle and tents.

A hundred years later,in 820,these Zotts had become so powerful,so insolent,they revolted against the Arab rulers who had imposed upon them.For fourteen years the rebels fought against the armies of the Arab princes sent to subdue them,inflicting the heaviest losses upon their erstwhile allies who had become their masters,raiding,pillaging and adjoining territory and capturing great booty.Men,women,and children fought with equal valor against their oppressors and betrayers who,after forcing them into an agreement of peace,had forcibly transported them hundreds of miles away from their home and attempted to break their independent spirits.

Arab chroniclers admit great valor of their foes;these Zotts were no mean fighters.Finally,in the year 834,Prince Motasim subdued the enemy after long and bloody warfare.Baghdad celebrated for three days the great victory over these wandering cattle-breeders.motasim passed through the gates of the great city,27 000 prisoners,men,women,and children,who were deported first to Khanikin,northeast of Baghdad,and then to Ainzarda.

In 856,the 'Romus" as the Byzantians were called,took
Ainzarba from the Arabs,taking the Zotts,with thent and cattle,as prisoners.

The year 856 is the approximate date of the appearance of the gypsies upon Byzantian territory.That the Byzantians were called Roums and that the Gypsies later called themselves roms is of great importance to those who want to know something about the Gypsies.

The Gypsies must have known the truth about their origin.why have they not told it?What dark past were they so carefully hiding?...Humbled and despised by everybody,they consider themselves above all other nations,purer,cleaner,healthier,wiser...a race of kings and queens,with no peers on Earth,claiming that even today they RULE!

Grouped separately,and judged by laws entirely different from the laws of the Countries they find themselves in .....No more Draconian laws have been issued against any people than have been issued against the Gypsies.wolves have been treated better than these people have been treated!Any yet,they are far from having been exterminated,far from being subdued....They have bought gifts to the World...I speak of Gypsy music,of Gypsy songs,of Gypsy dance,of Gypsy color and rythm.

As for breaking the spirit of the Gypsy!Not in the least..And they are free..

But again,why have the Gypsies kept the secret of their origin....

The people of India are divided into four castes.The first caste is that of the Brahmins,the second that of the Kshatriyas,the third the Vaishyas,and the fourth the Shudra.those who have no caste are to this day in Hindustan as well as in Malabar known under the name Pariah....(author goes into detailed discussion of caste)
But the Shudras were to be servants of the other three castes.They were and are considereed impure and abject,and are employed to do the most impure and abject work.They are not permitted to touch the food to be eaten by the other three castes,or to touch anything that comes in direct bodily contact with anybody not of their caste.The Shudras are considered much lower than the upper three castes,and are required to turn their heads away when talking to a person of high caste,least their breath pollute that of their masters.The Jats have been persecuted by upper caste Hindus throughout their history in India.

Anthropologists have established by measurments of a number of heads that the Gypsies and the Jats are of one and the same origin;....

If the head measurments alone were not convincing enough,the customs,morals,habits,and the great difference in diet would tend to clear up any doubts on the matter.It is improbable that the upper Castes of ndia would ever have tolerated a people so alien in habits and so objectionable to settle among them,were it even for performing the most menial and abject services for them.......

A picture of a present day Zott Gypsy.His ancstors put up a valiant fight against the Arabs,but alas,they lost:
http://www.bethany.com/profiles/clusters/8090.html

Hi Anti-Jat Guys,



I understand your sentiments--please do not be too emotional about these issues.


Again, you still have not provided answers to my questions --your recent posts containing Mumbo Jumbo are no
subsitutes to answering my

questions. Here are those questions again:


.Are the Sunny's posts concerning your past true?

. What is Indra/Vishnu....?

.Are you guys still believe in that disgusting Mumo Jumbo?

Please do your best to provide answers to above questions. Here are FIVE additional questions:

. If your ancient literature is that rich , how come you have been ruled by foreign Tom, Dick, and Harry from the
dawn of your country's history?

. Who ruled your people from Alexander to 1947?

. Who ruled your motherland before Moguls or 1485 ?--I know you guys sucked upto Moguls!

. Was ever a Bahman king of your nation?

. What is the meaning of the word HINDU? ---what is the origin of this word?-- there is no such word in your
ancient books such as referenced in Sunny's posts!

Please excuse if I have--. Best wishes.

Latest on Jat/Romany history and origins by the top scholars in the world in their field;
http://www.herts.ac.uk/UHPress/festken.html

Encyclopaedias like Probert only make claims after they have been conclusively varified by the majority of top scholars in their respective fields....

It is well established today among Western Scholars that Jats are Romany.The 2001 version of the Probert Dictionary confirms thus:

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/C7A.HTM ref.#JAT

The Jats of the village of Lotia are the most ancient and well known snake-charmers of India...refer to anon. posting on Nov.7,2001,1.20a.m.One of the better known trade marks of Roma is ofcourse snake charming,in addition to dancing,divination etc. which too closely relate to the Jat practices in form and content.No doubt,many tribes of the World practice divination or dancing,for instance,but we are looking for clear connections. For example Col.Sleeman says that "Jats are fond of music;and their dances are exactly represented by those of the Egyptian Gypsies...."

"We find the Jats well and copiously described as early as 1835 by Lieutanent-colonel Sleeman.He calls them Jats,with a very long vowel,and treats them everywhere as low-caste,or rather no-caste Hindus.Their original habitat was upon the Indus about Multan,and thence spread to the Jumna and the Chumbul valleys.....

The Jats are still half nomads,and perhaps of old they were fully nomadic.They are breeders of cattle and rude veterinary surgeons.They are fond of music;and their dances are exactly represented by those of the Egyptian Gypsies,a similarity which has yet to be insisted upon.Their ironsmelting,like that of the Mahabaleshwar tribes,is exactly like that of the Roma.Their swordplay is that of the Hindu,whereelse the Gypsies of Scotland use a direct thrust certainly not learned in India.The village Jats a said to mould the babies' heads.(a Gypsy custom)Divination seems to be the growth of the soil,and palmistry palpably derives from India.Snake-charming is also common among them.As their history in the Punjab proves,they are disposed to robbing and to violence...."
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_5.doc

XXX,attn. Nov.13,11.07

My little buddy,
The saying that,'You can bring a donkey to a pool but you cannot force it to drink off it',applies to you.I have already given you answers.

I must not be distracted any further in teaching Jats their exciting Gypsy history.

Regards.....

"The Jats,I may here notice,inhabited the Indine valley,whence emigration Westward is easy;the other tribes,like the Nats,were not as favourably situated for an exodus.Originally the Gypsies must have been outcasts;although they may have borrowed from the Aryans the horse-sacrifice and the burning of the dead--the latter custom has become obsolete in Europe,and now only a few of the deceased person's clothes are thrown into the fire.They had word's for God(Deob) and the Devil(Bad god-Benga)."Ja li Banga(go to the Devil) being a popular curse.They were unalphabetic:so clever a race would certainly not have lost a written script.The Jats are still nomads and perhaps of all they were fully nomadic.They are breeders of cattle and rude veterinary surgeons.They are fond of music...."It must be noted that the British testify that the Jats were known everywhere as "low caste or no caste Hindus."(Col. Sleeman)This is no surprise since even today in Gujerat,some Jat tribes are cattle nomads(polluting occupation) and are untouchables.Similarly,in conservative Rajasthan villages,Jats are not allowed to use upper Caste wells for fear of defilment....

Hi folks, upon reviewing books on Gypsies, I have come to the conclusion that Jats are about as Gypsy as Aryan Scriptures are truthful! I have also found out the promoters of the Jat origin of Gypsies (which was a repercussion by Aryan Hindu to the Britishers revealing the true Scythian origin of Jats about 100 years ago) is none other than the non-Jat Hindus. (surprise, surprise!) These folks try desperately to either steal others histories or demean them. Poor guys, I feel sorry for them; no history to feel proud about.

Why not instead of taking desperate attempts to downgrade the Jats’ beautiful history, research and find out your TRUE history. For example, YOUR non-violent philosophy is an excellent tactic when your are an underdog and have no other means of victory!

Good luck, and I will not disclose any more NEGATIVE parts of your culture and religion unless…

You guys don’t like a taste of your own medicine do you. Also answer XXX's questions you cowards!

Hi Anti-Jat Guys,

I understand your sentiments--please do not be too emotional about these issues.


Again, you still have not provided answers to my questions --your recent posts containing Mumbo Jumbo are no subsitutes to answering my

questions. Here are those questions again:


.Are the Sunny's posts concerning your past true?

. What is Indra/Vishnu....?

.Are you guys still believe in that disgusting Mumo Jumbo?

Please do your best to provide answers to above questions. Here are FIVE additional questions:

. If your ancient literature is that rich , how come you have been ruled by foreign Tom, Dick, and Harry from the
dawn of your country's history?

. Who ruled your people from Alexander to 1947?

. Who ruled your motherland before Moguls or 1485 ?--I know you guys sucked upto Moguls!

. Was ever a Bahman king of your nation?

. What is the meaning of the word HINDU? ---what is the origin of this word?-- there is no such word in your ancient books such as referenced in Sunny's posts!

Please excuse if I have--. Best wishes.

"Encyclopaedia Islam 2 calls Jats "Djat" and "Zutt". It is widely believed that the Zutt/Lulis/Jat are the ancestors of the Gypsies of Balkhans and Europe--Jats of North India have also often doubled as entertainers and as often troublesome military allies."
http://www.al-mustarib.org/al-jisr/archive/200010/0107.html

P.S. Ammendmend.

I said that there are literally dozens of Brahmin royal dynasties.I meant to say literally hundreds!!,throughout Indian history....
Regards.

Just off the top of my head,these are some more of the princely Brahmin dynasties of medeieval India:

Shungas,
Kanvas,
Setthis,
Mahasetthis,
Sungha Brahmins
Jaypal,
Anandpal,
Trilochanpal,
Shakarvarman,
Gowda Saraswat

This is just a trickle.There are literally dozens of Brahmin Princely houses......

I will now proceed to discuss other issues.A word of advise to the uneducated.Please read Indian history in detail before making silly comments.....

http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/fall97/adra-pin.htm

"It is known in India that leadership positions in society are monopolized by a few dominant classes.The Brahmins are the dominating high caste in India....THERE IS MUCH EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT BRAHMANS HELD MATERIAL POWER AT EVERY LEVEL,AT EVERY PERIOD OF INDIAN HISTORY.IN MOST AREAS THERE ARE BRAHMIN DYNASTIES,HOLDING THE DOMINATE CASTE IDEAL."

Attn. Anon,ref.Nov.13,2001,6.42am,

Can you prove your backward village noncense? Why do Jats often make claims without providing serious evidences to back their arguments?

Source: Nov 8,3.20a.m.,2001

Here are more superstitions of the Jat peasant of Punjab.It must be noted that the Roma is also very superstitious,and has many points in common with superstitions of the Jat peasant.We have already looked at superstitions of the "evil eye" common among Jats and Roma previously.Let us today observe other superstitions.It has been established by scholars that Jats are Gypsies of Europe:

"Many diseases are treated by spells,incantations,conjurations and amulets.In the Punjab,one still comes across Ojhas,Chelas,Sianas who treat all kinds of diseases.

If a person has a crook in the back,he should sit near the threashhold of one who was born feet first.That person is to be asked to give a kick to the sufferer.If he agrees to do and actually does what is required,the troublw will go away.The person who kicks has to stand at the inner side of the threshold.If there is pain in one side of the head,the person should look at the rays of the setting Sun and rub the affected portion with a few blades of grass,at the same time,muttering some incantations.Repeat it thrice and the pain will go away.

A sty or inflammation of the eye is cured if the sufferer knocks at night at a neighbouring house where there are two adults and a child.When someone from inside asks about the caller's identity,these words have to be uttered in reply;
I am a sty,
I come to you,from here I fly.

In the process,the sty is transferred from the caller to the person called.The best way to cure a prolonged attack of hiccups is to put some blame on the person concerned,though no indications of the motive behind this false blame may be given out.

If anyone suffers from intermitten fever,he should take a thread and go around a pippal tree seven times reciting an incantation.That way the fever will be passed on to the tree.There is another treatment for this fever.The patient is required to hear from the priest of a gurudwara the story of how Guru Amar Das once entrapped this fwver in the form of a child and released it only on the promise that whereever this ledgenb was told in future,it would run away from there.

For treating piles,the patient ties around his toe a thread of five colours,keeps it on for fifteen days,so as to open it on a Tuesday,and carries offerings to the temple of hanuman.A fit of epilepsy is cured by making the patient smell an old shoe."

Brahmans only got power when Muslims and British invaded by betraying their countrymen. The Hindu lala brahmans then got the British to falisify their history to seem as if they were racially superior. In the times of Ashoka and the Guptas, the Brahmans were nothing more than religious teachers.

http://www.san.beck.org/EC10-Social.html

The Great Hindu Ashoka was tamed by Buddhism.This is why we consider him Great:"Ashoka renounced violence of War stating that he would have to bear all that could be borne.He refused to conquer weaker smaller states,allowing even forest tribes an equal sovereignity.He wanted all people to enjoy the benifits of non-injury,self-control,fair conduct,and gentleness.He abolished royal huntings and animal sacrifices.He banned sports involving the killing of animals and cruel animal fighting.He restricted the killing of parrots,wild geese,bats,ants,tortosises,squirrels,porcupines,lizards,rhinos,pigeons.."

http://www.indianvisit.com/ivnew/thecountry/history/mauryanrulers.htm


The reason why Ashoka used Prakrit was because ,"Ashoka wanted his message to reach all his subjects,so he used the language they understood."

"As Ashoka became a devout Buddhist(remember he started off as a Hindu),he began to spread the teachings of Buddha by issuing edicts,which not only propogated religion but his ideals of society and governance.These edicts were sent to different parts of the empire....for the common people to see and read them.These edicts were in different scripts.The language was generally prakrit,as it was spoken by the common people.Whereelse SANSKRIT WAS SPOKEN BY THE EDUCATED UPPER CASTE PEOPLE."

"His lofty ideals also included shunning viloence and war,stopping animal sacrifice,vegetarianism etc."

http://www.xrefer.com/entry/443465

O.K. village idiots.

Prakrit is nothing more than a less stylised and non-classical form of Sanskrit.During the reign of Ashoka,he used Prakrit to communicate with his people because Sanskrit was too difficult for the common people to digest.It was an extraordinary era of trade and was characterised by a mini information revolution.He himself,being a king,spoke Sanskrit with his ministers and counsels....
"Prakrit>>From Sanskrit Prakrt. A collective term for the Middle Indo-Aryanlanguages from 600B.C. to A.D.110,sometimes called the Prakrit.The use of Prakrit in Sanskrit plays indicates a diglossic situation in which Kings and officials used Sanskrit and women,children,servants,eunuchs,and the sick or insane used Prakrit.The extent of the influence of Prakrit on Sanskrit grammer and literature makes it clear that the latter was not a standard language kept pure and apart from other languages.The relationship between Sanskrit and Prakrit can be compared to Latin and the Romance languages in Europe and standard English.."

The Jats say that Ashoka was Jat because Maurya sounds similar to their clan name Maur.By the same defective reasoning,we can claim that Osama Bin Ladin is also Jat because Ladin is close enough to Lidrin!! What noncense!There is no Western Scholar or any scholar of any repute that believes this noncense.It goes to show that backward people will do anything to try to fabricate proper Hindu history....!

Some ignorant backward peasants on this net,true to their cheap Gypsy like tricks,claim that Ashoka was a Jat.This is their cheap Gypsy/dalit reasoning:

(1)Maurya resembles Maur,one of their clan names.
(2)Ashoka used {Prakhit and Brahmi,not Sanskrit.
(3)Ashoka used the lion symbol.
(4)He was supposed to be 'saka'.

Let's quickly look at this village noncense.It is not even worth my while critiquing it,but I will quickly run through it:

(1)First of all, Maurya is not Maur.And the 'ya' is not a redundand suffix.Also,many castes in India have the last name Maur(like the Chamars,to name one).
(2)Just because he did not use Sanskrit,does not make him a Jat?This is noncense!And Prakhit and Brahmi are derived from Sanskrit!
(3)The Sinhalese also use the Lion symbol.This does not mean that Ashoka is a Sinhalese.
(4)There is no hard evidence that Ashoka is a Saka.Even if he was,there are other tribes in India who also claim to be Scythian,like the Chamars,Chudas,Tarkhans,Gujaars.This again proves nothing....

Village tales will not do.Where is the real evidence?You people do not even have a written language,and until 100 years ago,were mostly nomadic.You people are still backward caste Dalit people today!!!

The only time the Hindus did not diectly rule india was during Mogul and British rule.Yet,they still vielded enormous power during this time frame.Their rule was at it's intellectual peak during the classical period.During the time of the hindu Ashoka,the dalit Jats were not even allowed to read or write or stand in the presence of Brahmins and caste Hindus like Ashoka.The Gypsy Jat during that time was busy worrying about the "evil eye" in their backward temporary dwellings and villages.Jats were still primarily NOMADS at this time in Indian history.They were untouchables at this time.............

Hindu rule:

http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/vijayngr.html
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/maratha.html
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/hinduism.html

I will not waste time on the dalit any further...

Hindu power,classical period:

http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/maurya.html
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/south1.html
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/gupta.html

Another link on hindu rule:

http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/epic.html

Just one more small link on hindu power;
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/vijayngr.html

Just one tiny link on Brahmin Aryan rule.Brahmins have been rulers for most of India's history,as they are today.:

http://www.mohyals.com/vaid/

Hi Anti-Jat Guys,

Please do not feel offended about your--- I understand--

Again, you still have not provided answers to my questions --your recent posts are no subsitutes to answering my
questions. Here are those questions again:


.Are the Sunny's posts concerning your past true?

. What is Indra/Vishnu....?

.Are you guys still believe in that disgusting Mumo Jumbo?

Please do your best to provide answers to above questions. Here are FOUR additional questions:

. If your ancient literature is that rich , how come you have been ruled by foreign Tom, Dick, and Harry from the
dawn of your country's history?

. Who ruled your people from Alexander to 1947?
. Who ruled your motherland before Moguls or 1485 ?--I know you guys sucked upto Moguls!
. Was ever a Bahman king of your nation?
Please excuse if I have--. Best wishes.

if the hindus were all that....then how come they have not been able to create a single thread and need to post on jatts and sakas etc.

the reason is they are pavement gypsies with no home at all!

Mr. mickey Mouse XXX,
I think it is clear by now that you keep on following me around like the Nomadic Gypsy fly that you are, because you know that I do not make any claims without supporting evidences,and you will receieve only truthful answers on this thread from me....You have many other threads you can go to to discuss your psudo-nonsence mumbo-jumbo made up Jat history,but no,you always come back here,like a dog.No matter how many times I kick your ass,like a faithful dog,you always come back for more punishment.I only make postings on this thread.If you don't like what I say,get lost.....

In the near future,we will show that the Jat is actually a mixed people of Arabic/Turkic-Dravidian mixture and NOT Aryan.

By the way,India was ruled by the Hindu Aryans from Alexandra to 1947.Even during the Mogul period,Brahmins and other Aryans weilded the functions of government and power in India.In fact,Brahminist power was strengthened during mogul period.Go read any history book,and dont bore us with mickey mouse psudo intellectualism Jat/Gypsy....

Attn.mickey mouse XXX of Nov.12,12.38pm.,

You are in no position to demand any questions off us,Dalit.Just be glad that you are being educated by serious people..Sit back and learn,or go to another thread.

Hi Anti-Jat Guys,

You still have not provided answers to my questions --your recent posts are no subsitutes to answering my questions. Here are those questions again:


.Are the Sunny's posts concerning your past true?

. What is Indra/Vishnu....?

.Are you guys still believe in that disgusting Mumo Jumbo?

Please do your best to provide answers to above questions. Here are two additional questions:

. If your ancient literature is that rich , how come you have been ruled by foreign Tom, Dick, and Harry from the dawn of your country's history?

. Who ruled your people from Alexander to 1947?

Please excuse if I have--. Best wishes.

I am going to quite discussing the mickey-mouse Jat/Gypsy history for a while,and educate the Shudras on the structure,root forms and original texture of some Sanskrit,Latin words etc..So pay attention,if you can:


The first systematic theory of the relationships between human languages began when Sir William Jones,proposed that Greek and Latin,the classical languages of Europe,and Sanskrit,the classical language of India,had all descended from a common source.The evidence for this came from the structure of the languages! For example,'Father' in English compares to 'Vater' in German,'Pater' in Latin,'Pat^er' in Greek,'Pitr' in Sanskrit,'Pedar' in Persian.On the other hand,'Father" in Arabic is 'ab',which hardly seems like any of the others.This became the theory of Indo-European languages,and today the hypothetical language common to all is called "Proto-Indo-European."A few other words. Seven, Hindi(Sat),Sanskrit(Sapta),Greek(hepta),Latin(Septem),Persian(Haft)...Daughter, Sanskrit(Duhitr),Persian(Dokhtar)...Nose,Sanskrit(Nasa),Latin(Nasus),German(Nase).

Let's look at the root word VEDA >>>.

Sanskrit VID is "find out"
VIDYA "knowledge"
VEDA "sacred knowledge"
JNA "perceieve"
JNANA "knowledge"

Latin VIDERE "to see"
VISUM "seen,appearance"
NOSCERE "to know"
COGNOSCERE "learn"

Old English WITAN "to be aware of"
Middle English WITEN "to know"
Modern English WISE,WIT,KNOW,WITTY

The European languages,except for the Basque and a few others,derive from a very ancient language which is called Indo-European.It is called so,because the idioms of the Indian subcontinent have the same root as the European languages.This is due to tribal migrations which started about 5000 years ago.

The European,Persian and Indian languages are related to each other, and has been found by making comparisons between them.The base of these comparisons were the archaic forms of our modern languages because the further one goes back in time,the closer are these languages to each other.Thus,in Sanskrit,the root of the modern vernacular of India,the third person of 'to be' is 'asti';it's Latin counterpart is 'est'.

A formula was developed which is nearly always valid.The vocal 'a' undergoes a change and becomes 'e' in Latin or even Greek.After this,an infinite number of similarities between Sanskrit,Latin,Greek,Celtic etc. was discovered by the great genius william Jones sometime in 1788A.D..This led linguists to believe that these ancient languages,and therefore their modern versions all had a common root.By using Latin,Greek,Sanskrit and a few other archaic idioms as a base,linguists started to re-construct the PRIME LANGUAGE of the European and Indian tribes.....

Sanskrit of the Hindus,first among equals.

http://personal.monm.edu/mcroberts_dawn/charts.htm

http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/i-files.html

"Typically,the practitioners of the egg/tomato trick are Gypsies,the term having derived from 'Egyptian" due to a mistakennotion of their ancestary.they were actually exiled from N.W. India in the first millenninum A.D.,and in the Middle-Ages sought refuge in Romania,hence their other designations as Romanies,or Roma.They consist an ethnic group who 'essentially live outside the cultures of the countries in which they choose to reside and who treat non-Gypsies as fair game for their fortune-telling,curse-lifting and other superstitious ministrations."

refer to my post on nov.11,10.09pm,for a comparison.

PANONYMOUSE

Ref. to my last posting about the fear of the 'evil 'eye' among the Jat peasants and their superstitions regarding it,the Gypsy of Europe also has the same profound fear of the "evil eye".Like the Jat peasant in Punjab,the Gypsy too has jewellery and other rituals to ward off the 'evil eye'.
ref: http://www.gypsysilver.com/Anklets.Shtml/

ONE THING IS FOR SURE THAT RAHUAL aka ANONYMOUS DOES NOT HAVE ANYONE TO DISCUSS THE GREAT HINDU GYPSY PAVEMENT CULTURE WITH!

NO ONE TO AGREE WITH IT.

IF HE DID THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A PAGE OR THREAD AT LEAST DEDICATED TO THAT AND YOU WOULD NOT NEED TO USES NAMES LIKE TARUN/RAHUAL/ANON/RAJPUT ETC.

HIS LONELY OBSESSION BLINDS HIM COMPLETELY......
THATS PATHETIC PAVEMENTWALLAHS WHO LIKE PASSING PORN OFF AS SOME KIND OF CULTURE!

THANKS FOR THE EXCELLENT POSTS SUNNY /XXX ETC.

NOW WE KNOW WHERE THIS SICKNESS OF HINDUS LIKE RAHUAL COMES FROM!

ONE THING IS FOR SURE THAT RAHUAL aka ANONYMOUS DOES NOT HAVE ANYONE TO DISCUSS THE GREAT HINDU GYPSY PAVEMENT CULTURE WITH!

NO ONE TO AGREE WITH IT.

IF HE DID THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A PAGE OR THREAD AT LEAST DEDICATED TO THAT AND YOU WOULD NOT NEED TO USES NAMES LIKE TARUN/RAHUAL/ANON/RAJPUT ETC.

HIS LONELY OBSESSION BLINDS HIM COMPLETELY......
THATS PATHETIC PAVEMENTWALLAHS WHO LIKE PASSING PORN OFF AS SOME KIND OF CULTURE!

THANKS FOR THE EXCELLENT POSTS SUNNY /XXX ETC.

NOW WE KNOW WHERE THIS SICKNESS OF HINDUS LIKE RAHUAL COMES FROM!

Sikhism was created by non-jat Hindus.

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/culture/belief.htm

The above site clearly illustrates the paucity of peasant culture in the Punjab.This link provides a quick synopsis of the many and varied superstitions of the Punjabi farmer;,witccraft,familiar spirits,divination,local deities,etc.It must also be noted that like the Roma of Europe,the peasant in the Punjab has many superstitions geared towards averting the so-called 'evil eye.'The 'evil eye' figures prominantly in Punjabi superstition.The following are quick abstracts from the above link,highlighting remarkably well the cheap Gypsy-like superstitions of these people.These superstitions are for the most part,hollow,strange,even childlike,lacking in profoundness:

"Beliefs and superstitions are deep rooted habits and fancies.The majority of the population of the Punjab being rural,for centuries these people of the villages,bereft of education and contact with awakened communities,were under the spell of superstition and witchcraft....In the Punjab,it is believed that the control of natural powers is one of the possessions of the Saints and therefore,many such powers have been associated with almost every saint.stories of miraculous exhabition are associated with every pir,jogi,and Saint of repute,including Sikh Gurus,though they condemned these powers...."

Some quotes:

"When a new utensil is bought,a horse is first made to smell it.Eating pork or wearing the teeth of a pig around the neck protects a person from the "evil eye" and witchcraft.Augury of ants carrying grain of food into a house is a promise of prosperity,but if the ants are seen going out they are a symptom of a heavy loss in the near future.Whopping cough is said to be cured by riding a bear.The hair of a bear round the necks can keep the "evil eye" away.When a Cobra completes its hundred years of life,it developes a metamorphic power.It is then called an Ichhadhari(capable of assuming any form)or a Chhaleda.(phantom)The gem in the head of the snake is considered a very precious thing and can be used to avert the "evil eye".Particular months of the year are considered inauspicious for particular animals to litter.A cheat is not good for a bitch,Vaisakh for a she-camel,Jrth for a cat,Sawan for a mare or a she-ass,Bhadon for a cow,Magar for a buffalo,and Poh for a Goat.If they litter in the months considered inauspicious for them they,according to belief,bring calamities upon the family that keeps them.Such animals are quickly sold away...
As soon as a child is born,it is made to pass through a hole in a sieve which is specially torn for this purpose.The "evil eye" is thus removed,such a child proves immensely lucky.Care is taken to see that no broom remains lying anywhere in the room because it will sweep off all the luck of the newborn baby....An iron knive is kept in the room in order to protect the mother and her newborn baby from "evil spirits".To protect a child from the
"evil eye",a black mark is invariably put in it's forehead,a piece of coal put in its milk,or a black thread is tied to the golden bangles worn in the arm.A black object is hung on the terrace of a newly constructed home.Some people paint a gargoyl on a black pot,break it from underneath,and hang a red strip below it in order to make it look like a demon.All this is done to protect the house against the "evil eye".Some women make their children wear round their necks 'nazarbattus'(protectors from the "evil eye"),for this purpose,or sometimes for the same purpose hang pig's teeth round their neck.

There is a treatment for the child affected by the "evil eye".A couple of dried red chillies are first waved over the head of the child and then thrown into the fire.If the smoke does not hurt the eyes,it is a sure sign that the "evil look" had affected the child....."

It must be noted that among the Roma of Europe,the "evil eye" also is the most significant hallmark of Gypsy superstition. ..Similarly,in peasant Punjab superstition,we notice the same prominence given to averting the all important "evil eye".These cheap superstitionsin common between Gypsy and Punjabi peasants are the indisputable hallmarks of a once united people, separated by circumstance to different corners of the World.......

In a passage of the Rig Veda,'Vac'('Vac' connotes the infinite,akin to the Greek Logos and the Latin Vox.)is praised as a divine being.Vac is omnipotent,moves among divine beings,and carries the great gods,Mitra,Varuna,Indra,Agni,within itself.The doctrine of Sanskritic 'Vac' teaches that 'all gods originate from the Vakti or Logos,Vox.'

There is also striking similarity between the social life described in the Homeric poems--the liiiad and Odyssey--and that found in the Vedas.Homeric ideas of a language of the God's is also found in Sanskrit,Greek,old Norse,and Hittite literature.Some scholars,like Fiske,have even asserted that elements of the Trojan War story are to be found in the war between the 'bright deties',and the 'night demons' as described in the Rig Veda.It is clear that even they used articles of Indian merchandise which were known by names of Indian origin,such as Kassiteros(Sanskrit,Kastira),Elephas(Sanskrit,ibha),and Ivory etc...

In the old days,any Shudra Jat reading the following paragraphs would have had to contend with Manu's Law.Nevertheless,this is the 21st Century:

"According to Roman Sources,Tactitus in his 'Annals and histories',the Germans claim to be the descendands of the Mannus,the son of Tuisto.Tuisto relates to Vedic Tvasthar,the Vedic father-creator Sky God,who is also a name for the father of Manu.This makes Rig Veda people also descendands of Manu,the son of Tvashtar.

In the Rig Veda,Tvashtar appears as the father of Indra,who fashion the thunderbolt(Vajra)for him.Yet Indra is sometimes at odds with Tvashtar because is compelled to surpass him.Elsewhere Tvashtar's son is Vishvarupa or Vritra,whome Indra kills,cutting off his three heads.Indra slays the dragon,Vritrya,who lays at the foot of the mountain withholding the waters,and releases the seven rivers to flow into the sea.In several instances,Vritra is called Danava,the son of the goddess Danu..who is connecred to the sea.

In the Brahmanas Vishvarupa/Vritra is the son of Danu and Danayu,the names of his mother and father.Clearly Vritra is Vishvarupa,the son of the god Tvashtor and the goddess Danu..."

Europeans linking themselves with Veda Aryans:
http://www.vedanet.com/Danu.htm

"Many ancient European peoples,particularly the Celts and Germans,regard themselves as children of Danu....

The Jats are nomads and peasants.We have already given a dictionary definition of NOMAD.Now let's see what PEASANT means:

PEASANT:

(1)A member of the class constituted by serfs and tenants,sharecroppers and labourers on the land where they form the main labour force in agriculture.

(2)A rustic.

(3)An uncultured,crude,or ill-bread person;a boor.

Oxford Dictionary,
Oxford University Press.

India is the world's most ancient civilization. Nowhere on earth can you find such a rich and multi-layered tradition that has remained unbroken and largely unchanged for at least five thousand years. Bowing low before the onslaught of armies, and elements, India has survived every invasion, every natural disaster, every mortal disease and epidemic, the double helix of her genetic code transmitting its unmistakable imprint down five millennia to no less than a billion modern bearers. Indians have demonstrated greater cultural stamina than any other people on earth.

Indic civilization has enriched every art and science known to man. Thanks to India, we reckon from zero to ten with misnamed "Arabic" numerals (Hindsaa - in Arabic means from India), and use a decimal system without which our modern computer age would hardly have been possible.

Science and philosophy were both highly developed disciplines in ancient India. However, because Indian philosophic thought was considerably more mature and found particular favor amongst intellectuals, the traditions persists that any early scientific contribution came solely from the West, Greece in particular. Because of this erroneous belief, which is perpetuated by a wide variety of scholars, it is necessary to briefly examine the history of Indian scientific thought.

"Many of the advances in the sciences that we consider today to have been made in Europe were in fact made in India centuries ago." - Grant Duff British Historian of India

Some of the famous intellectuals in the West and the East had the following things to say about Hinduism:

1. Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862), American Philosopher, Unitarian, social critic, transcendentalist and writer:

"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seems puny."

(source: The Writings of Henry D. Thoreau - Walden 1989. Princeton Univ. Press. page 298.)

"What extracts from the Vedas I have read fall on me like the light of a higher and purer luminary, which describes a loftier course through purer stratum. It rises on me like the full moon after the stars have come out, wading through some far stratum in the sky."

(source: Commentaries on the Vedas, The Upanishads & the Bhagavad Gita By Sri Chinmoy Aum Publications. 1996. Pp 26.)

"Whenever I have read any part of the Vedas, I have felt that some unearthly and unknown light illuminated me. In the great teaching of the Vedas, there is no touch of sectarianism. It is of all ages, climes and nationalities and is the royal road for the attainment of the Great Knowledge. When I am at it, I feel that I am under the spangled heavens of a summer night."

(source: The Hindu Mind: Fundamentals of Hindu Religion and Philosophy for All Ages - By Bansi Pandit B & V Enterprises 1996. page 307.

"I would say to the readers of the Scriptures, if they wish for a good book, read the Bhagvat-Geeta .... translated by Charles Wilkins. It deserves to be read with reverence even by Yankees...."Besides the Bhagvat-Geeta, our Shakespeare seems sometimes youthfully green... Ex oriente lux may still be the motto of scholars, for the Western world has not yet derived from the East all the light it is destined to derive thence."

In his book Walden, Thoreau contain explicit references to Indian Scriptures such as:

"How much more admirable the Bhagavad Geeta than all the ruins of the East.' (source: The Writings of Henry D. Thoreau - Walden 1989. Princeton Univ. Press. page 57)

He even followed a traditional Hindu way of life.

"It was fit that I should live on rice mainly, who loved so well the philosophy of India."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 18.

In his Transcendental thoughts, the world at large conglomerate into one big divine family. He finds beside his Walden pond "the servant of the Brahmin, priest of Brahma and Vishnu and Indra, who still sits in his temple on the Ganges reading the Vedas…" their buckets "grate together in the same well. The pure Walden water is mingled with the sacred water of the Ganges".

Thoreau, the Concord sage, said, "The Vedanta teaches how by 'forsaking religious rites' the votary may obtain purification of mind." And "One sentence of the Gita, is worth the State of Massachusetts many times over"
(source: The Bhagavad Gita: A Scripture for the Future. Translation and Commentary By Sachindra K. Majumdar Asian Humanities Press. 1991. pg 5.)

" The reader is nowhere raised into and sustained in a bigger, purer or rarer region of thought than in the Bhagavad-Gita. The Gita's sanity and sublimity have impressed the minds of even soldiers and merchants."

He also admitted that, "The religion and philosophy of the Hebrews are those of a wilder and ruder tribe, wanting the civility and intellectual refinements and subtlety of Vedic culture." Thoreau's reading of literature on India and the Vedas was extensive: he took them seriously.

( The Secret Teachings of the Vedas. The Eastern Answers to the Mysteries of Life - By Stephen Knapp volume one. pg- 22)

Along with Emerson , he published essays on Hindu scriptures in a journal called The Dial.

2. Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German philosopher and writer. He was one of the greatest philosophers of the 19th century. He was the first Western philosopher to have access to translations of philosophical material from India, both Vedic and Buddhist, by which he was profoundly affected. Counted among his disciples are such thinkers as Nietzsche and Wittgenstein, as well as Sigmund Freud, who takes a large part of his psychological theory from the writings of Schopenhauer.

Schopenhauer became acquainted with the thought of the Upanishads through a Latin translation from Persian by a Frenchman, Anquetil Duperron. His eulogy is well known.

"And O! how the mind is here washed clean of all its early ingrafted Jewish superstition! It is the most profitable and most elevating reading which is possible in the world."

(source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan pg 248).

"From every sentence (of the Upanishads) deep, original and sublime thoughts arise, and the whole is pervaded by a high and holy and earnest spirit...."In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. They are destined sooner or later to become the faith of the people."

" It has been the solace of my life -- it will be the solace of my death."

(source: The Discovery of India - By Jawaharlal Nehru Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 92).
The Upanishads Translated for the Modern Reader By Eknath Easwaran. Nilgiri Press. 1987 p. 300).

To Schopenhauer, the Upanishads were documents of 'almost superhuman conception,' whose authors could hardly be thought of as 'mere mortals.'

He also remarked: "How every line is of such strong, determined, and consistent meaning! And on every page we encounter deep, original, lofty thoughts, while the whole world is suffused with a high and holy seriousness."

(source: cited in German in Upanishaden: Altindische Weisheit (Upanishads: Ancient Indian Wisdom) - By Alfred Hillebrandt (Dussseldorf-Koln, Germany; Diederichs Verlag, 1964 p. 8)

He spoke of India as the 'fatherland of mankind' which 'gave the original religion of our race,' and he expressed the hope that European peoples, 'who stemmed from Asia,...would re-attain the religion of their home.'

He believed that the Upanishads, together with the philosophies of Plato and Kant, constituted the foundation on which to erect a proper philosophy of representation. It was the Upanishads' analysis of the self which caused Schopenhauer to stamp them as " the product of the highest human wisdom". He dedicated himself to this task, producing his magnum opus, The World as Will and Representation, in 1819. This is what he says in this book:

"We, on the contrary, now send to the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers, in order out of sympathy to put them right, and to point out to them that they are created out of nothing, and that they ought to be grateful and pleased about it. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet at a cliff. "In India, our religions will never at any time take root; the ancient wisdom of the human race will not be supplanted by the events in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian wisdom flows back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought."

(source: The World as Will and Representation, Arthur Schopenhauer Volume I, § 63, pg. 356-357)

Schopenhauer regarded the Hindus as deeper thinkers than Europeans because their interpretation of the world was internal and intuitive, not external and intellectual. For intuition unites everything, the intellect divides everything. The Hindus saw that the "I" is a delusion, that the individual is merely phenomenal, and that the only reality is the Infinite One "That art Thou"
(source: India and World Civilization By D. P. Singhal Pan Macmillan Limited. 1993. Pg 254)

Schopenhauer wrote in the preface of his "The World as a Will and Representation"

"According to me, the influence of Sanskrit literature on our time will not be lesser than what was in the 16th century Greece's influence on Renaissance. One day, India's wisdom will flow again on Europe and will totally transform our knowledge and thought."

3. Lord Warren Hastings (1754-1826), was the first governor general of British India. Hastings was very much impressed and overwhelmed with Hindu philosophy:

He wrote with a prophetic and resounding pronouncement on the whole body of Indian writings:

"The writers of the Indian philosophies will survive, when the British dominion in India shall long have ceased to exist, and when the sources which it yielded of wealth and power are lost to remembrances."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 19)

" I hesitate not to pronounce the Gita a performance of great originality, of sublimity of conception, reasoning and diction almost unequalled; and a single exception, amongst all the known religions of mankind.." ( India Discovered - By John Keay p- 25)


4. Ralph Waldo Emerson, (1803-1882) author, essayist, lecturer, philosopher, Unitarian minister said this about the Gita:

" I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-Gita. It was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us." (source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 65

Repelled by the increasing materialism of the West, Emerson turned to India for solace:
" The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles."
(source: India and World Civilization By D. P. Singhal Pan Macmillan Limited. 1993. Pg 254)

Emerson's Oversoul is the paramatman of the Upanishads.

His famous poem " Brahma" is an example of his Vedantic ecstasy.

(source: Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage By Will Durant MJF Books. 1935. pg 415)


5. Wilhelm von Humboldt (1767- 1835) Prussian minister of education, a brilliant linguist and the founder of the science of general linguistics. Humboldt began to learn Sanskrit in 1821 and was greatly moved by Schlegel's edition of the Bhagavad Gita, on which he published an extensive study. The Bhagavad Gita made a great impression on Humboldt, who said that " this episode of the Mahabharata was:

"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing in any known tongue ....perhaps the deepest and loftiest thing the world has to show."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 650)

He devoted to it a long treatise in the Proceedings of the Academy of Berlin (1825-6).

He thanked God for having permitted him to live long enough to become acquainted with the Gita.
(source: Vedanta: Heart of Hinduism - By Hans Torwesten An Evergreen Book. Grove Press. 1985. pg 6.

On June 30 1825, Humboldt lectured to the Berlin Academy of Sciences on the Gita, placing it firmly in the mainstream of the scholarship of the period. He found in the Bhagavad Gita his own "spiritual ancestors". What appealed to him was its originality and its simplicity. Krishna's doctrine, he wrote,

" ...develops in such a peculiarly individual way, (and) it is, so far as I can judge, so much less burdened with sophistry and mysticism, that it deserves our special attention, standing as it does as an independent work of art..."
(source: The Universal Gita: Western Images of the Bhagavad Gita a Bicentenary Survey - By Eric J. Sharpe p. 19).

Humboldt studied Sanskrit with Franz Bopp in London. For Humboldt, Sanskrit with its wealth of grammatical forms is the climax of inflecting languages.

(source: German Indologists: Biographies of Scholars in Indian Studies writing in German - By Valentine Stache-Rosen. p.5-6).

6. Mark Twain (1835-1910) also known as Samuel Clemens, one of the most widely loved and celebrated American writers since his first books were released in the late 1860s. Many of his writings have reached the pinnacles of American and world literature, including the timeless Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court and Following the Equator. Besides these easily recognizable classics, Twain wrote fascinating Travelogue detailing his experiences in Asia.

"So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds. Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked."

"Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."

"India had the start of the whole world in the beginning of things. She had the first civilization; she had the first accumulation of material wealth; she was populous with deep thinkers and subtle intellects; she had mines, and woods, and a fruitful soul."

He had said in his inimitable style: “Varanasi" is older than history, older than tradition, older even than legend, and looks twice as old as all of them put together.”
(source: Soul of a Nation - The Hindustan Times ). Varanasi has been continuously populated for more than 3,000 years, and has often been called the oldest city in the world. It was the contemporary of Thebes and Babylon.

Mark Twain remarked: " India has two million gods, and worships them all. In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire." When traveling through India, he had exclaimed that though a week had only seven days, Indians seemed to celebrate eight festivals every week.

Some of the famous intellectuals in the West and the East had the following things to say about Hinduism:

7. Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century.

"It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family."

The tolerance of Hinduism was recognized by Toynbee, who on many occasions contrasted the exclusivity of the Jewish religion, based on the Jewish belief that the Jews are the chosen people with the large tolerance of the Hindus and Buddhist. This plague of exclusiveness, he claims, was inherited by both the Christians and Muslims: hence their lamentable record. (source: Concordant Discord - By R. C. Zaehner pp-22-23).

‘‘There may or may not be only one single absolute truth and only one single ultimate way of salvation. We do not know. But we do know that there are more approaches to truth than one, and more means of salvation than one.’’‘‘This is a hard saying for adherents of the higher religions of the Judaic family (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but it is a truism for Hindus. The spirit of mutual good-will, esteem, and veritable love ... is the traditional spirit of the religions of the Indian family. This is one of India’s gifts to the world.’’

(source: Britannia Perspectives - Quoted By T. V. R. Shenoy in Secularism is not for Hindus alone )

Toynbee predicted: "At the close of this century, the world would be dominated by the West, but that in the 21st century "India will conquer her conquerors."

(source: Spiritual Heritage of India - By Swami Prabhavananda Vedanta Press 1997).

"India is a whole world in herself; she is a society of the same magnitude as our Western society."

(source: Civilization on Trail and the World and the West - By Arnold Toynbee Meridian Books. p. 257).

"India is not only the heir of her own religious traditions; she is also the residuary legatee of the Ancient Mediterranean World's religious traditions." "Religion cuts far deeper, and, at the religious level, India has not been a recipient; she has been a giver. About half the total number of the living higher religions are of Indian origin."

(source: One World and India - By Arnold Toynbee p. 42- 59).


8. Annie Wood Besant (1847-1933), George Bernard Shaw regarded her the " greatest woman public speaker of her time." Was a prominent leader of India's freedom movement, member of the Indian National Congress, and of the Theosophical Society, said on India and Hinduism :

"After a study of some forty years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect ,none so scientific, none so philosophical and no so spiritual that the great religion known by the name of Hinduism. Make no mistake, without Hinduism, India has no future. Hinduism is the soil in to which India's roots are stuck and torn out of that she will inevitably wither as a tree torn out from its place. And if Hindus do not maintain Hinduism who shall save it? If India's own children do not cling to her faith who shall guard it. India alone can save India and India and Hinduism are one. "

Annie Besant thought that "among the priceless teachings that may be found in the great Indian epic Mahabharata, there is none so rare and priceless as the Gita."

9. Victor Cousin, (1792-1867) French Philosopher believes that:

"When we read with attention the poetical and philosophical monuments of the East--above all, those of India, which are beginning to spread in Europe--we discover there many a truth, and truths so profound, and which make such a contrast with the meanness of the results at which European genius has sometimes stopped, that we are constrained to bend the knee before the philosophy of the East, and to see in this cradle of the human race the native land of the highest philosophy."

(source: Is India Civilized: Essays on Indian Culture - By Sir John Woodroffe p. 132).

10. Jules Michelet, (1789-1874), French writer, the greatest historian of the romantic school said:

"At its starting point in India, the birthplace of races and religions, the womb of the world."

This is what Michelet said of the Ramayana:
"Whoever has done or willed too much let him drink from this deep cup a long draught of life and youth........Everything is narrow in the West - Greece is small and I stifle; Judea is dry and I pant. Let me look toward lofty Asia, and the profound East for a little while. There lies my great poem, as vast as the Indian ocean, blessed, gilded with the sun, the book of divine harmony wherein is no dissonance. A serene peace reigns there, and in the midst of conflict an infinite sweetness, a boundless fraternity, which spreads over all living things, an ocean (without bottom or bound) of love, of pity, of clemency."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 149).

" From India comes to us a torrent of light, a river of Right and Reason" ......

(source: Arise, O India! - By Francois Gautier ISBN 81-241-0518-9 Har-Anand Publications 2000.
p. 25 ).

11. Rudyard Kipling,(1865-1936) imperial poet of British India, as well as a writer, who spent his earliest years blissfully happy in an India full of exotic sights and sounds. Kipling was a Nobel Laureate in Literature, and was famous for his poem, The White Man's Burden. He said this to Fundamental Christian Missionaries :



"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu smiles and weareth the Christian down ; and the end of the fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late deceased and the epitaph drear , " A fool lies here who tried to hustle the east".

12. Will Durant, (1885-1981) American historian, would like the West to learn from India, tolerance and gentleness and love for all living things:

"It is true that even across the Himalayan barrier India has sent to us such questionable gifts as grammar and logic, philosophy and fables, hypnotism and chess, and above all our numerals and our decimal system. But these are not the essence of her spirit; they are trifles compared to what we may learn from her in the future."

"Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit, and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 20)

"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all." Nothing should more deeply shame the modern student than the recency and inadequacy of his acquaintance with India....This is the India that patient scholarship is now opening up like a new intellectual continent to that Western mind which only yesterday thought civilization an exclusive Western thing."

"As flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing their name and form, thus a wise man, freed from name and form, goes to the divine person who is beyond all." Such a theory of life and death will not please Western man, whose religion is as permeated with individualism as are his political and economic institutions. But it has satisfied the philosophical Hindu mind with astonishing continuity.

Durant felt that "Even in Europe and America, this wistful theosophy has won millions upon millions of followers, from lonely women and tired men to Schopenhauer and Emerson. Who would have thought that the great American philosopher of individualism would give perfect expression to the Hindu conviction in his poem 'Brahma', that individuality is a delusion? "
(source: Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage By Will Durant MJF Books. 1935. pg 415)

13. Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) the English novelist and essayist, born into a family that included some of the most distinguished members of the English ruling class, says that the Gita is for the whole world.

"The Bhagavad-Gita is the most systematic statement of spiritual evolution of endowing value to mankind. The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive summaries of the spiritual thoughts ever to have been made. Hence Huxley thought its enduring value, not only for Indians, but for all mankind." (source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 65).

In his latest books, Eyeless in Gaza and Ends and Means, Aldous Huxley invites our attention to the discipline essential for spiritual insight and argues for the acceptance of the Yoga method. The influence of Indian thought is not so much a model to be copied as a dye which permeates. (source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan pg 250).

14. Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947), British mathematician, logician and philosopher best known for his work in mathematical logic and who, in collaboration with Bertrand Russell, authored the landmark three-volume Principia Mathematica (1910, 1912, 1913).
Whitehead is reported to have remarked:

" Vedanta is the most impressive metaphysics the human mind has conceived." (source: Huston Smith: Essays on World Religion edited by M. Darrrol Bryant Paragon House 1992 page 135).

15. Joseph Campbell (1904-1987) was one of the foremost interpreters of myth in our time. Campbell was a prolific writer, dedicated editor, beloved teacher, inspiring lecturer, and an avid scholar of spiritual and cultural development.

"It is ironic that our great western civilization, which has opened to the minds of all mankind the infinite wonders of a universe of untold billions of galaxies should be saddled with the tightest little cosmological image known to mankind? The Hindus with their grandiose Kalpas and their ideas of the divine power which is beyond all human category (male or female). Not so alien to the imagery of modern science that it could not have been put to acceptable use."
(source: Myths to Live By - By Joseph Campbell. A Bantam Book 1988. page 90).

"There is an important difference between the Hindu and the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every individual. There is no "fall". Man is not cut off from the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he will experience that divine principle with him."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism An Introduction By Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 19.

Some of the famous intellectuals in the West and the East had the following things to say about Hinduism:

16. Sir Monier-Williams (1860-1888)Indologist and head of the Oxford's Boden Chair said:

"The strength of Hinduism lies in its infinite adaptability to the infinite diversity of human character and human tendencies. It has its highly spiritual and abstract side suited to the philosopher, its practical to the man of the world, its aesthetic and ceremonial side attuned to the man of the poetic feeling and imagination; and its quiescent contemplative aspect that has its appeal for the man of peace and the lover of seclusion."

"The Hindus, according to him, were Spinozists more than 2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted by scientists of the present age.

17. Friedrich Maximilian Müeller (1823-1900) German philologist and Orientalist. He repeatedly drew attention to the uniqueness of the Vedas and awakened interest in Indology among educated people. He did more than any other scholar to popularize philology and mythology, e.g., his lectures Science of Language.
Muller is best known for his series Sacred Books of the East.

He wrote:

"If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered over the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions of some of them which well deserve the attention even of those who have studied Plato and Kant, I should point to India." And if I were to ask myself from what literature we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of the Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw the corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human a life...again I should point to India."

(source: The World's Religions - By Huston Smith. Harper San Francisco. 1991 pg 12)

"I maintain that for everybody who cares for himself, for his ancestors, for his history, for his intellectual development, a study of Vedic literature is indispensable ".

"The Upanishads are the.....sources of .....the Vedanta philosophy, a system in which human speculation seems to me to have reached its very acme." "I spend my happiest hours in reading Vedantic books. They are to me like the light of the morning, like the pure air of the mountains - so simple, so true, if once understood."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 19).

"The conception of the world as deduced from the Veda, and chiefly from the Upanishads, is indeed astounding."

(source: The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy - By Max Muller (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1916), p. xiv.

"The transcendent temperament acquired, no doubt, a more complete supremacy in the Indian character than anywhere else."

In History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature (p 557), Max Muller observed, "In the Rig Veda we shall have before us more real antiquity than in all the inscriptions of Egypt or Ninevah...the Veda is the oldest book in existence.."

"Historical records (of the Hindus) extend in some respects so far beyond all records and have been preserved to us in such perfect and legible documents, that we can learn from them lessons which we can learn nowhere else and supply missing links." (source: India - What It Can Teach Us - By Max Muller p. 21)

Muller says that from Indian literature the Christian world "may draw that corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly humane, a life not for this only, but a transfigured and eternal life." (source: India - What It Can Teach Us - By Max Muller p. 6).

In Three Lectures on Vedanta Philosophy published in 1896, Muller writes: "What distinguishes the Vedanta philosophy from all other philosophies is that it is at the same time a religion and a philosophy." (pp 11-12).

About the love of truth experienced by the sages of the Upanishads, Prof. Max Muller says, " If it seems strange to you that the old Indian Philosophers should have known more about the soul than Greek or medieval or modern philosophers, let us remember that however much the telescopes for observing the stars of heaven have been improved, the observatories of the soul have remained much the same."

He went on to say: "It is surely astounding that such a system as the Vedanta should have been slowly elaborated by the indefatigable and intrepid thinkers of India thousands of years ago, a system that even now makes us feel giddy, as in mounting last steps of the swaying spire of a Gothic cathedral. None of our philosophers, not excepting Heraclitus, Plato, Kant or Hegel, has ventured to erect such a spire, never frightened by storms or lighting. Stone follows on stone after regular succession after once the first step has been made, after once it has been clearly seen that in the beginning there can have been One, as there will be but One in the end, whether we call it Atman or Brahman." (source: Three Lectures on the Vedanta Philosophy, London. 1894. p. 7).

18. Count H. Keyserling (1880-1946) philosopher, author, public speaker. He is the first Western thinker to conceive and promote a planetary culture, beyond nationalism and cultural ethnocentrism, based on recognition of the equal value and validity of non-western cultures and philosophies. Keyserling founded the School of Wisdom in Darmstadt, Germany in 1920 based on the original Schools of Wisdom which prospered over two thousand years ago in Northern India.

"I have not found in Europe or America, poets, thinkers or popular leaders equal, or even comparable, to those of India today."

(source: The Discovery of India - By Jawaharlal Nehru Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 89).

" Hinduism at its best has spoken the only relevant truth about the way to self-realization in the full sense of the word.'

(source: Huston Smith: Essays on World Religion. edited by M. Darrrol Bryant Paragon House 1992 page 29-30)

19. Romain Rolland,(1866-1944) French Nobel laureate, professor of the history of music at the Sorbonne and thinker. He authored a book on the " Life of Ramakrishna".

This is what he said about India: "If there is one place on the face of the earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India....For more than 30 centuries, the tree of vision, with all its thousand branches and their millions of twigs, has sprung from this torrid land, the burning womb of the Gods. It renews itself tirelessly showing no signs of decay."
"Let us return to our eagle's nest in the Himalayas. It is waiting for us, for it is ours, eaglets of Europe, we need not renounce any part of our real nature...whence we formerly took our flight."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 20.)

"Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws, moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach, but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West, but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief."

Romain Rolland thought: "The true Vedantic spirit does not start out with a system of preconceived ideas. It possesses absolute liberty and unrivalled courage among religions with regard to the facts to be observed and the diverse hypotheses it has laid down for their coordination. Never having been hampered by a priestly order, each man has been entirely free to search wherever he pleased for the spiritual explanation of the spectacle of the universe."

He points outs out that " a hundred facts testify to how great an extent the East (India) was mingled with Hellenic thought during the second century of our era."

(source: Romain Rolland has given a long Note as an appendix to his book on Vivekananda - 'On the Hellenic-Christian Mysticism of the First Centuries and its Relationship to Hindu Mysticism.').

20. Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) Was among India's most fervent nationalists, fighting for Indian independence from British rule. He claimed: " "I am a proud Sanatani Hindu." He has further stated:

"Hinduism has made marvelous discoveries in things of religion, of the spirit, of the soul. We have no eye for these great and fine discoveries. We are dazzled by the material progress that Western science has made. Ancient India has survived because Hinduism was not developed along material but spiritual lines."
"Hinduism is a relentless pursuit of Truth. "Truth is God" and if today it has become moribund, inactive, irresponsive to growth, it is because we are fatigued; and as soon as the fatigue is over, Hinduism will burst upon the world with a brilliance perhaps unknown before.”

(source: Young India, April 24, 1924 and The Discovery of India - By Jawaharlal Nehru. Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 75).

He was disillusioned by the hypocrisy of the Western civilization. He denounced England's devilish acts in India, and proclaimed it as a "Satanic Power'. Then, gave the cry for the 'Quit India' movement. While in London, Gandhi wrote: "Looking at this land, I at any rate have grown disillusioned with Western civilization. They spend, their days in luxury or in making a bare living and retire at night thoroughly exhausted. In this state of affairs, I cannot understand when they can devote themselves to prayers."
(Indian Opinion: Mahatma Gandhi quoted by Judith M. Brown. 1994:5 - Modern India: The Origins of an Asian democracy). It is said that Gandhi was once asked what he thought of Western civilization, and answered that he felt it might be a good idea. (source: OutlookIndia.com)

This is what Gandhi wrote about the Bhagavad Gita:

"The Geeta is the universal mother. I find a solace in the Bhagavadgeeta that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad Gita. I find a verse here and a verse there , and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies - and my life has been full of external tragedies - and if they have left no visible or indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavadgeeta."

About Bhagawad Gita Gandhi, says: “Today the Gita is not only my Bible or my Koran, it is more than that—it is my mother... When I am in difficulty or distress I seek refuge in her bosom.” (source: Harijan 24-8-1934).

He considered the Bhagavad Gita as a book ' par excellence' for the knowledge of Truth (God).

"India is to me the dearest country in the world, because I have discovered goodness in it. It has been subject to foreign rule, it is true. But the status of a slave is preferable to that of a slave holder."

“Hinduism is a living organism. One and indivisible at the root, it has grown into a vast tree with innumerable branches. Knowledge is limitless and so also the application of truth. Everyday we add to our knowledge of the power of Atman (soul) and we shall keep on doing so.”

He was a Hindu to the core. Defining his attitude to a prominent Indian Christian, Kali Charan Banerjee, he said:

"I am unable to identify with orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being, and I find solace in the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount." (Young India, 6-8-1925).
(source: India and World Civilization By D. P. Singhal Pan Macmillan Limited. 1993. Pg 258.

"If all The Upanishads and all the other scriptures happened all of a sudden to be reduced to ashes, and if only the first verse in the Ishopanishad were left in the memory of the Hindus, Hinduism would live for ever."
(source: The Upanishads Translated for the Modern Reader By Eknath Easwaran. Nilgiri Press. 1987. pg 205).

Gandhi was a proud and combative Hindu, his first and foremost loyalty was towards Hindu society and Hinduism, says Koenraad Elst in his book Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam p. 84).
'The Bhagavad Gita is my mother,' he once said; and the name of Sri Rama was his shield.'

Attn. Anon. nov. 10,8.49pm,

Ref, your comments....Buddy,keep on dreaming.Do you people still not realise the paucity of your so-called Jat 'culture'.Are you that dense?Why do you keep on insulting proper Hindus?All we are doing is telling the truth and exposing falsehood.If you can't bear it,get lost!

...........black gypsy rahul!

every move you make

every step you take

proves you are a JATT wannabee!!!


folks please excuse the fella !

its obvious he is having a fit hence posting left right and centre!

he thinks by these posts we might forget that hindus are 95% pavement gypsies!

WISHFUL THINKING BUT CANT FAULT A HINDU GYPSY FOR TRYING......IN DESPERATION!!!

Friedrich Maximilian Müeller (1823-1900) German philologist and Orientalist. He repeatedly drew attention to the uniqueness of the Vedas and awakened interest in Indology among educated people. He did more than any other scholar to popularize philology and mythology, e.g., his lectures Science of Language.
Muller is best known for his series Sacred Books of the East.

He wrote:

"If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered over the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions of some of them which well deserve the attention even of those who have studied Plato and Kant, I should point to India." And if I were to ask myself from what literature we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of the Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw the corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human a life...again I should point to India."

(source: The World's Religions - By Huston Smith. Harper San Francisco. 1991 pg 12)

"I maintain that for everybody who cares for himself, for his ancestors, for his history, for his intellectual development, a study of Vedic literature is indispensable ".

"The Upanishads are the.....sources of .....the Vedanta philosophy, a system in which human speculation seems to me to have reached its very acme." "I spend my happiest hours in reading Vedantic books. They are to me like the light of the morning, like the pure air of the mountains - so simple, so true, if once understood."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 19).

"The conception of the world as deduced from the Veda, and chiefly from the Upanishads, is indeed astounding."

(source: The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy - By Max Muller (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1916), p. xiv.

"The transcendent temperament acquired, no doubt, a more complete supremacy in the Indian character than anywhere else."

In History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature (p 557), Max Muller observed, "In the Rig Veda we shall have before us more real antiquity than in all the inscriptions of Egypt or Ninevah...the Veda is the oldest book in existence.."

"Historical records (of the Hindus) extend in some respects so far beyond all records and have been preserved to us in such perfect and legible documents, that we can learn from them lessons which we can learn nowhere else and supply missing links." (source: India - What It Can Teach Us - By Max Muller p. 21)

Muller says that from Indian literature the Christian world "may draw that corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly humane, a life not for this only, but a transfigured and eternal life." (source: India - What It Can Teach Us - By Max Muller p. 6).

In Three Lectures on Vedanta Philosophy published in 1896, Muller writes: "What distinguishes the Vedanta philosophy from all other philosophies is that it is at the same time a religion and a philosophy." (pp 11-12).

About the love of truth experienced by the sages of the Upanishads, Prof. Max Muller says, " If it seems strange to you that the old Indian Philosophers should have known more about the soul than Greek or medieval or modern philosophers, let us remember that however much the telescopes for observing the stars of heaven have been improved, the observatories of the soul have remained much the same."

He went on to say: "It is surely astounding that such a system as the Vedanta should have been slowly elaborated by the indefatigable and intrepid thinkers of India thousands of years ago, a system that even now makes us feel giddy, as in mounting last steps of the swaying spire of a Gothic cathedral. None of our philosophers, not excepting Heraclitus, Plato, Kant or Hegel, has ventured to erect such a spire, never frightened by storms or lighting. Stone follows on stone after regular succession after once the first step has been made, after once it has been clearly seen that in the beginning there can have been One, as there will be but One in the end, whether we call it Atman or Brahman." (source: Three Lectures on the Vedanta Philosophy, London. 1894. p. 7).

18. Count H. Keyserling (1880-1946) philosopher, author, public speaker. He is the first Western thinker to conceive and promote a planetary culture, beyond nationalism and cultural ethnocentrism, based on recognition of the equal value and validity of non-western cultures and philosophies. Keyserling founded the School of Wisdom in Darmstadt, Germany in 1920 based on the original Schools of Wisdom which prospered over two thousand years ago in Northern India.

"I have not found in Europe or America, poets, thinkers or popular leaders equal, or even comparable, to those of India today."

(source: The Discovery of India - By Jawaharlal Nehru Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 89).

" Hinduism at its best has spoken the only relevant truth about the way to self-realization in the full sense of the word.'

(source: Huston Smith: Essays on World Religion. edited by M. Darrrol Bryant Paragon House 1992 page 29-30)

19. Romain Rolland,(1866-1944) French Nobel laureate, professor of the history of music at the Sorbonne and thinker. He authored a book on the " Life of Ramakrishna".

This is what he said about India: "If there is one place on the face of the earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India....For more than 30 centuries, the tree of vision, with all its thousand branches and their millions of twigs, has sprung from this torrid land, the burning womb of the Gods. It renews itself tirelessly showing no signs of decay."
"Let us return to our eagle's nest in the Himalayas. It is waiting for us, for it is ours, eaglets of Europe, we need not renounce any part of our real nature...whence we formerly took our flight."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 20.)

"Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws, moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach, but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West, but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief."

Romain Rolland thought: "The true Vedantic spirit does not start out with a system of preconceived ideas. It possesses absolute liberty and unrivalled courage among religions with regard to the facts to be observed and the diverse hypotheses it has laid down for their coordination. Never having been hampered by a priestly order, each man has been entirely free to search wherever he pleased for the spiritual explanation of the spectacle of the universe."

He points outs out that " a hundred facts testify to how great an extent the East (India) was mingled with Hellenic thought during the second century of our era."

(source: Romain Rolland has given a long Note as an appendix to his book on Vivekananda - 'On the Hellenic-Christian Mysticism of the First Centuries and its Relationship to Hindu Mysticism.').

20. Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) Was among India's most fervent nationalists, fighting for Indian independence from British rule. He claimed: " "I am a proud Sanatani Hindu." He has further stated:

"Hinduism has made marvelous discoveries in things of religion, of the spirit, of the soul. We have no eye for these great and fine discoveries. We are dazzled by the material progress that Western science has made. Ancient India has survived because Hinduism was not developed along material but spiritual lines."
"Hinduism is a relentless pursuit of Truth. "Truth is God" and if today it has become moribund, inactive, irresponsive to growth, it is because we are fatigued; and as soon as the fatigue is over, Hinduism will burst upon the world with a brilliance perhaps unknown before.”

(source: Young India, April 24, 1924 and The Discovery of India - By Jawaharlal Nehru. Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 75).

He was disillusioned by the hypocrisy of the Western civilization. He denounced England's devilish acts in India, and proclaimed it as a "Satanic Power'. Then, gave the cry for the 'Quit India' movement. While in London, Gandhi wrote: "Looking at this land, I at any rate have grown disillusioned with Western civilization. They spend, their days in luxury or in making a bare living and retire at night thoroughly exhausted. In this state of affairs, I cannot understand when they can devote themselves to prayers."
(Indian Opinion: Mahatma Gandhi quoted by Judith M. Brown. 1994:5 - Modern India: The Origins of an Asian democracy). It is said that Gandhi was once asked what he thought of Western civilization, and answered that he felt it might be a good idea. (source: OutlookIndia.com)

This is what Gandhi wrote about the Bhagavad Gita:

"The Geeta is the universal mother. I find a solace in the Bhagavadgeeta that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad Gita. I find a verse here and a verse there , and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies - and my life has been full of external tragedies - and if they have left no visible or indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavadgeeta."

About Bhagawad Gita Gandhi, says: “Today the Gita is not only my Bible or my Koran, it is more than that—it is my mother... When I am in difficulty or distress I seek refuge in her bosom.” (source: Harijan 24-8-1934).

He considered the Bhagavad Gita as a book ' par excellence' for the knowledge of Truth (God).

"India is to me the dearest country in the world, because I have discovered goodness in it. It has been subject to foreign rule, it is true. But the status of a slave is preferable to that of a slave holder."

“Hinduism is a living organism. One and indivisible at the root, it has grown into a vast tree with innumerable branches. Knowledge is limitless and so also the application of truth. Everyday we add to our knowledge of the power of Atman (soul) and we shall keep on doing so.”

He was a Hindu to the core. Defining his attitude to a prominent Indian Christian, Kali Charan Banerjee, he said:

"I am unable to identify with orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being, and I find solace in the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount." (Young India, 6-8-1925).
(source: India and World Civilization By D. P. Singhal Pan Macmillan Limited. 1993. Pg 258.

"If all The Upanishads and all the other scriptures happened all of a sudden to be reduced to ashes, and if only the first verse in the Ishopanishad were left in the memory of the Hindus, Hinduism would live for ever."
(source: The Upanishads Translated for the Modern Reader By Eknath Easwaran. Nilgiri Press. 1987. pg 205).

Gandhi was a proud and combative Hindu, his first and foremost loyalty was towards Hindu society and Hinduism, says Koenraad Elst in his book Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam p. 84).
'The Bhagavad Gita is my mother,' he once said; and the name of Sri Rama was his shield.'
(source: Freeindia.org)

Sir Monier-Williams (1860-1888)Indologist and head of the Oxford's Boden Chair said:

"The strength of Hinduism lies in its infinite adaptability to the infinite diversity of human character and human tendencies. It has its highly spiritual and abstract side suited to the philosopher, its practical to the man of the world, its aesthetic and ceremonial side attuned to the man of the poetic feeling and imagination; and its quiescent contemplative aspect that has its appeal for the man of peace and the lover of seclusion."

"The Hindus, according to him, were Spinozists more than 2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted by scientists of the present age.

Joseph Campbell (1904-1987)

"There is an important difference between the Hindu and the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every individual. There is no "fall". Man is not cut off from the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he will experience that divine principle with him."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism An Introduction By Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pp 19.

Joseph Campbell (1904-1987) was one of the foremost interpreters of myth in our time. Campbell was a prolific writer, dedicated editor, beloved teacher, inspiring lecturer, and an avid scholar of spiritual and cultural development.

"It is ironic that our great western civilization, which has opened to the minds of all mankind the infinite wonders of a universe of untold billions of galaxies should be saddled with the tightest little cosmological image known to mankind? The Hindus with their grandiose Kalpas and their ideas of the divine power which is beyond all human category (male or female). Not so alien to the imagery of modern science that it could not have been put to acceptable use."
(source: Myths to Live By - By Joseph Campbell. A Bantam Book 1988. page 90).

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) the English novelist and essayist, born into a family that included some of the most distinguished members of the English ruling class, says that the Gita is for the whole world.

"The Bhagavad-Gita is the most systematic statement of spiritual evolution of endowing value to mankind. The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive summaries of the spiritual thoughts ever to have been made. Hence Huxley thought its enduring value, not only for Indians, but for all mankind." (source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 65).

In his latest books, Eyeless in Gaza and Ends and Means, Aldous Huxley invites our attention to the discipline essential for spiritual insight and argues for the acceptance of the Yoga method. The influence of Indian thought is not so much a model to be copied as a dye which permeates. (source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan pg 250).

Will Durant, (1885-1981) American historian, would like the West to learn from India, tolerance and gentleness and love for all living things:

"It is true that even across the Himalayan barrier India has sent to us such questionable gifts as grammar and logic, philosophy and fables, hypnotism and chess, and above all our numerals and our decimal system. But these are not the essence of her spirit; they are trifles compared to what we may learn from her in the future."

"Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit, and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things."
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 20)

"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all." Nothing should more deeply shame the modern student than the recency and inadequacy of his acquaintance with India....This is the India that patient scholarship is now opening up like a new intellectual continent to that Western mind which only yesterday thought civilization an exclusive Western thing."

"As flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing their name and form, thus a wise man, freed from name and form, goes to the divine person who is beyond all." Such a theory of life and death will not please Western man, whose religion is as permeated with individualism as are his political and economic institutions. But it has satisfied the philosophical Hindu mind with astonishing continuity.

Durant felt that "Even in Europe and America, this wistful theosophy has won millions upon millions of followers, from lonely women and tired men to Schopenhauer and Emerson. Who would have thought that the great American philosopher of individualism would give perfect expression to the Hindu conviction in his poem 'Brahma', that individuality is a delusion? "
(source: Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage By Will Durant MJF Books. 1935. pg 415)

Rudyard Kipling,(1865-1936) imperial poet of British India, as well as a writer, who spent his earliest years blissfully happy in an India full of exotic sights and sounds. Kipling was a Nobel Laureate in Literature, and was famous for his poem, The White Man's Burden. He said this to Fundamental Christian Missionaries :

"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu smiles and weareth the Christian down ; and the end of the fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late deceased and the epitaph drear , " A fool lies here who tried to hustle the east".

Jules Michelet, (1789-1874), French writer, the greatest historian of the romantic school said:

"At its starting point in India, the birthplace of races and religions, the womb of the world."

This is what Michelet said of the Ramayana:
"Whoever has done or willed too much let him drink from this deep cup a long draught of life and youth........Everything is narrow in the West - Greece is small and I stifle; Judea is dry and I pant. Let me look toward lofty Asia, and the profound East for a little while. There lies my great poem, as vast as the Indian ocean, blessed, gilded with the sun, the book of divine harmony wherein is no dissonance. A serene peace reigns there, and in the midst of conflict an infinite sweetness, a boundless fraternity, which spreads over all living things, an ocean (without bottom or bound) of love, of pity, of clemency."

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 149).

" From India comes to us a torrent of light, a river of Right and Reason" ......

(source: Arise, O India! - By Francois Gautier ISBN 81-241-0518-9 Har-Anand Publications 2000.
p. 25 ).

Victor Cousin, (1792-1867) French Philosopher believes that:

"When we read with attention the poetical and philosophical monuments of the East--above all, those of India, which are beginning to spread in Europe--we discover there many a truth, and truths so profound, and which make such a contrast with the meanness of the results at which European genius has sometimes stopped, that we are constrained to bend the knee before the philosophy of the East, and to see in this cradle of the human race the native land of the highest philosophy."

(source: Is India Civilized: Essays on Indian Culture - By Sir John Woodroffe p. 132).

Annie Wood Besant (1847-1933), George Bernard Shaw regarded her the " greatest woman public speaker of her time." Was a prominent leader of India's freedom movement, member of the Indian National Congress, and of the Theosophical Society, said on India and Hinduism :

"After a study of some forty years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect ,none so scientific, none so philosophical and no so spiritual that the great religion known by the name of Hinduism. Make no mistake, without Hinduism, India has no future. Hinduism is the soil in to which India's roots are stuck and torn out of that she will inevitably wither as a tree torn out from its place. And if Hindus do not maintain Hinduism who shall save it? If India's own children do not cling to her faith who shall guard it. India alone can save India and India and Hinduism are one. "

Annie Besant thought that "among the priceless teachings that may be found in the great Indian epic Mahabharata, there is none so rare and priceless as the Gita."

Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century.

"It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family."

The tolerance of Hinduism was recognized by Toynbee, who on many occasions contrasted the exclusivity of the Jewish religion, based on the Jewish belief that the Jews are the chosen people with the large tolerance of the Hindus and Buddhist. This plague of exclusiveness, he claims, was inherited by both the Christians and Muslims: hence their lamentable record. (source: Concordant Discord - By R. C. Zaehner pp-22-23).

‘‘There may or may not be only one single absolute truth and only one single ultimate way of salvation. We do not know. But we do know that there are more approaches to truth than one, and more means of salvation than one.’’‘‘This is a hard saying for adherents of the higher religions of the Judaic family (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but it is a truism for Hindus. The spirit of mutual good-will, esteem, and veritable love ... is the traditional spirit of the religions of the Indian family. This is one of India’s gifts to the world.’’

(source: Britannia Perspectives - Quoted By T. V. R. Shenoy in Secularism is not for Hindus alone )

Toynbee predicted: "At the close of this century, the world would be dominated by the West, but that in the 21st century "India will conquer her conquerors."

(source: Spiritual Heritage of India - By Swami Prabhavananda Vedanta Press 1997).

"India is a whole world in herself; she is a society of the same magnitude as our Western society."

(source: Civilization on Trail and the World and the West - By Arnold Toynbee Meridian Books. p. 257).

"India is not only the heir of her own religious traditions; she is also the residuary legatee of the Ancient Mediterranean World's religious traditions." "Religion cuts far deeper, and, at the religious level, India has not been a recipient; she has been a giver. About half the total number of the living higher religions are of Indian origin."

(source: One World and India - By Arnold Toynbee p. 42- 59).

Mark Twain (1835-1910) also known as Samuel Clemens, one of the most widely loved and celebrated American writers since his first books were released in the late 1860s. Many of his writings have reached the pinnacles of American and world literature, including the timeless Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court and Following the Equator. Besides these easily recognizable classics, Twain wrote fascinating Travelogue detailing his experiences in Asia.

"So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds. Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked."

"Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."

"India had the start of the whole world in the beginning of things. She had the first civilization; she had the first accumulation of material wealth; she was populous with deep thinkers and subtle intellects; she had mines, and woods, and a fruitful soul."

He had said in his inimitable style: “Varanasi" is older than history, older than tradition, older even than legend, and looks twice as old as all of them put together.”
(source: Soul of a Nation - The Hindustan Times ). Varanasi has been continuously populated for more than 3,000 years, and has often been called the oldest city in the world. It was the contemporary of Thebes and Babylon.

Mark Twain remarked: " India has two million gods, and worships them all. In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire." When traveling through India, he had exclaimed that though a week had only seven days, Indians seemed to celebrate eight festivals every week.

In contrast,the Jats have no language.

Midgets.

there you go again!

further confirmation that rahul the black hindu gypsy is obbessesed with JATTS!

he cant join us,he cant be near us so he hangs in here on the JAT HISTORY THREAD...day and night!!

gives new meaning to "hanging by a thread"!

rahuls life hangs by a JAT THREAD and its here for all to see.

i dont even bother to read his stupid posts! the minute i see his name it sets me to laughing that this spineless little creep can be so lacking in any vestige of pride(bahmans do) that living on the pavements as 95% of these hindus do...he still thinks that he can explain his OBSESSION on here.

Wilhelm von Humboldt (1767- 1835) Prussian minister of education, a brilliant linguist and the founder of the science of general linguistics. Humboldt began to learn Sanskrit in 1821 and was greatly moved by Schlegel's edition of the Bhagavad Gita, on which he published an extensive study. The Bhagavad Gita made a great impression on Humboldt, who said that " this episode of the Mahabharata was:

"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing in any known tongue ....perhaps the deepest and loftiest thing the world has to show."


Repelled by the increasing materialism of the West, Emerson turned to India for solace:

" The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles."