Anonymous on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 11:30 am, I don't know who sang what. But it should tell you that a Tarkhaan appreciates Jatt pride...

Hey shita, you have kicked out of here too many times. First you worry about your mama licking toilets you son of a dirty bittch and then come back and say something. You can sing all the songs you want. That's your problem basttard.

Mother fucckers like you trying to be Sikh just by forcing Jatts not classify as Jatts and yet you are forgetting the very basic rule of Sikhism. Your are violating all sort of rules of Sikhism...

You basttards don't understand the basic principle of Sikhism. Sikhism is for the entire humanity not for people who classify themselves as Sikhs only. As long as you keep classifying yourself as a Sikh and keep discriminating against people who don't classify, we have right to classify ourselves as Jatts and we will keep discriminating against you, period. Neither you mama can stop us even if she comes here and does her regular job of strip dancing, not basttards like can stop us with the abuse. If anything, it makes us prouder of being Jatts...

Apparently, you basttard is completely blind. I have shut off your buddies many times, time and time again...

PCJS obviously you have no brains and cannot figure out that TP is the editor and you keep on whining to him.

And Observer, the sad part is that our editor thinks these are doing nothing wrong with abusing Jats...

Observer, you remember one time you said you wouldn't want to associate with people like alias "Druken Jat"? Well are people like Sikha here you can associate with. Morons like this guy are the major reason why we have to egt abusive here. What would you do to these idiots with no logic at all? Would you allow them to abuse you for reason at all?

"Example is Jats singing their stupid Jat de putt songs. Imagine if Khatri Sikhs start to sing all day "Kharian de putt bade bahadur" or Tarkhans start singing all day "Ari Ari Ari Tarkhan Areppa", or Kumars Sikhs start singing "Ghara, Ghara Ghara kumar da bara ln", "

Poot Jattaan Dey is Sung by a Dharkhan. Stoopid Jatts couldnt even get a Jatt to sing it. Wot a bunch of stoopid losers.

Observer, what's pain has got to do with it? Really? Don’t tell me you are so ignorant that you can’t see animals going through pain when they are killed. Try chopping your finger off and then do the same thing with an animal. I am pretty sure you will see the same reaction. May be or may be not people can learn to tolerate pain. But usually it’s through either meditation or daily practice, e.g. martial arts. But, an ordinary person usually reacts the same way. Some parts of our body feel less pain than others. But believe me animals don’t know meditation nor do they practice martial arts.

Even if pain is part of life, it doesn’t mean you have a right to aggravate it.

In other words, people don’t have the definite answer as to why keeping long is necessary among Sikhs, especially for the Khalsa. Some people say it’s to stay the way God has created and others like you are saying it has to do with royalty. I personally don’t believe that royalty has anything to do with religion. Religion is supposedly about practicing something that will connect you to God. I don’t know what royalty has anything to do with connecting with God.

Apparently a lot of people have provided a lot of quotes from Guru Granth Sahib that prove that eating meat is not a Sikh principle and you still keep saying otherwise. How do you know you will not be judged on killing animals? Yes you will be judged on all of your karmas.

You said, “Not eating meat without avoiding the 5 vices will not make a man any better.”
- Still being vegetarian while avoiding 5 vices is better than being a non-vegetarian while avoiding 5 vices…

PCJS (proud calli jutti de putt sikh) I can only laugh that now Jat Sikhs do not want to debate with us (non Jat sikhs). Looks like in Talhan village the other Sikhs gave Jat Sikhs the boot and they do not want to associate with you. Are you admitting that Jat Sikhs are cowards who benefited by joining Sikhism and taking all the advantages and then later started to promote Jat Sikhs over other Sikhs. Example is Jats singing their stupid Jat de putt songs. Imagine if Khatri Sikhs start to sing all day "Kharian de putt bade bahadur" or Tarkhans start singing all day "Ari Ari Ari Tarkhan Areppa", or Kumars Sikhs start singing "Ghara, Ghara Ghara kumar da bara ln", similarly other Sikhs start singing their own then you are only promoting your castes. Then how can Sikhs claim that they are not a sect of Hinduism but a different religion. Saleo jat booton thoidi ma nu dave ktte apna bada ln.

PCJS Sir,

"Observer, yes animals and vegetables are not equal to humans. However it doesn’t mean vegetables and animals are equal to each other. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that animals definitely feel the pain. Since causing pain is wrong, it’s wrong to kill animals. Even if the vegetables and fruits felt the pain, it would be so minimum. Plus we have no choice but to eat to survive. Since it makes sense to minimize the pain, it makes sense to eat vegetables and fruits rather than animals."

What has pain got to do with anything. No one truly knows how an animal feels pain. Humans have different tolerances of pain and we are unsure how one human feels pain to another. Some persons can walk on hot coals and others cannot tolerate a paper cut. PCJS Sir, this is what you see in your mind as being pain. An animal when it runs acts on instinct. When pain is inflicted the human body shuts off the nervous system. Trauma and shock is induced. The body is very good at dealing with pain. I have spoken and know many Mahapursh, who can tolerate incredible pain, and they could tell you many things about pain. It is something I think you would do well to research. Pain acts to strengthen character. Pain is something unavoidable in life.

"It for sure isn’t good in Sikhism. I mean Sikhs don’t even believe in unnecessarily trimming your hair, then how can they say Sikhism allows unnecessarily killing animals?"

Sir,these are part of the 5 Khakkars. These are symbols of Royalty and a Warrior. If a person wants to trim their hair then it iis up to them, but they cannot be called a true Sikh.

"Apparently, a lot of people have given quotes from Guru Granth Sahib that Saints don’t see eating meat as moral. So, we assume that they do know what God wants. My opinion is only my own feeling, which has been confirmed by gurus and saints in Guru Granth Sahib and Hinduism…"

PCJS Sir.This is untrue. Sikhism stand on eating meat is simple. It is an individual choice. You will not be judged on such insignificant issues. Not eating meat without avoiding the 5 vices will not make a man any better.

Observer, yes animals and vegetables are not equal to humans. However it doesn’t mean vegetables and animals are equal to each other. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that animals definitely feel the pain. Since causing pain is wrong, it’s wrong to kill animals. Even if the vegetables and fruits felt the pain, it would be so minimum. Plus we have no choice but to eat to survive. Since it makes sense to minimize the pain, it makes sense to eat vegetables and fruits rather than animals.

It for sure isn’t good in Sikhism. I mean Sikhs don’t even believe in unnecessarily trimming your hair, then how can they say Sikhism allows unnecessarily killing animals?

Apparently, a lot of people have given quotes from Guru Granth Sahib that Saints don’t see eating meat as moral. So, we assume that they do know what God wants. My opinion is only my own feeling, which has been confirmed by gurus and saints in Guru Granth Sahib and Hinduism…

Sikha, you have once again proven that a typical non-Jat has no decency to debate properly which gives us more reason not to associate with idiots like you…

PCJS Sir,

"Yes if they claim to have realized God of morality and the universe and they believe it is not OK to kill human and yet it’s OK to kill animals, then yes they are being immoral or have not discovered morality yet. People unknowingly commit something that could be considered immoral. But keep doing something once you know it’s wrong really makes it wrong.

I would seriously doubt those people’s claim of having met God of morality who claim who wouldn’t kill humans and yet kill animals even though they both have been proven to feel tremendous pain in the process and both are part of Chaurasi…"

Again sir you are saying that you see morality as that being of if an animal is killed it is like a human being killed. This is your opinion of morality and its Universality. You cannot say that you know exactly what God has meant. If you do then you are a Guru and this does not seem like what you mean. I understand your sentiments,but animals are not equal to humans, in the same way plants are not equal to humans. You cannot apply your notion of morality to the whole world. That is not the way to speak to each other.

Thank you.

PCJ (proud cutti jatti de putt) you are hiding here now. I have been looking for you every where. Saleo jat boots you think you are superior over other Sikhs. ...... Jats wil be given the boot from Sikhism like they were in Talhan village. You have made the mistake of promoting Jatism and casteism in Sikhism when the basic foundation for Sikhism was to reject casteism. Now you Jat boots will face the music and sing and dance your jat-jutti songs when you are booted out from Punjab by bhaiyas of Bihar.

Proud Non Jat Sikh

PCJS,

you said "Like they say only poison kills poison"...

if you took two poisons would that not kill you twice as fast or twice as painfully... only an anti-venom made from a poison can kill or neutralise a poison... is this what you really mean?

Anonymous thanks...

Folks, I wanna know if someone agrees with me on something and it's a pure assumption based upon no religious belief...

Just like all animals are different even though they belong to the same class, we humans are different. For example, a dog can be friendly and at the same time, other dog can have high tendency to bite. One fish can kill human and other fish can save human. One snake could be much more poisonous and aggressive than other snakes. I guess that God created them. The same way even though all of us have been created in human class, we act differently based upon the personality God has created us with. If one sees something wrong with unnecessary killing, others cannot understand and see why it’s wrong. I guess that’s just how He created them…

Just like Guru Nanak said that even if you fed a snake milk, it would always produce poison…

Take care folks….

Editor, do you see anything out of the ordinary that was not just a counter-argument to what was said about me in my post below which you didn't post on August 02?

Observer on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 07:16 am, Like they say only poison kills poison. I pity you if you could keep watching people abuse you and not do anything. You could not convince these people with humbleness, just like you could convince people like Hitler, Bin Laden or Aurungzeb with humility. I pity you if you would allow someone to call you names, especially the ones who pretend being part of our community. These double-faced people are criminals; they pretend to be part of us something they are not. Deep inside, they are our enemies.

Yes if they claim to have realized God of morality and the universe and they believe it is not OK to kill human and yet it’s OK to kill animals, then yes they are being immoral or have not discovered morality yet. People unknowingly commit something that could be considered immoral. But keep doing something once you know it’s wrong really makes it wrong.

I would seriously doubt those people’s claim of having met God of morality who claim who wouldn’t kill humans and yet kill animals even though they both have been proven to feel tremendous pain in the process and both are part of Chaurasi…

OH GOD ALOO

do u have a potato for a brain? oxygen is plntiful in the atmosphere and for your information, vegetarians dont eat trees, or more than 96% of the plant life in the world

please tell me your comments were intended to be funny

Why does a man prefer a specific type of diet over the other? Why do people perform certain actions, or act in certain ways? Why do mortals cater to certain habits, tendencies and desires? The answers to these questions and more lie in the proper understanding of the three modes of material nature, also known as three qualities of Maya. The material nature (including all matter) is composed of three ingredients called Gunas or "quality". These three qualities are Saatav, Raajas, and Taamas. In English, they can be called the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, respectively.
· Trai gun aap sirjian Maya moh vadhaayaa: God Himself created the three qualities and increased our love for worldly objects (sggs 1237).
· Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya: The quality of passion, the quality of ignorance, and the quality of goodness; all these are called the creation of Your power (sggs 1123).
Dharm arath kaam mokh jin raj tam sat gun tureeaaraanee: Conquering dharma, artha, kaama, moksa and crossing three stagges of raajas, sattva and taamas they enter into the fourth stage turiya, the stage of supreme bliss (Vaars Bhai Gurdaas).


Foods dear to Saatavic people are those that purify one's existence; that bring vitality, endurance, health, satisfaction, and happiness. These foods are juicy, mild, substantial, and agreeable to the body. In fact, the Saatavic people sleep less and eat less. Accordingly, the Gurbani declares that the diet of a Saatavic or a Spiritual Being — the truest of true — is very simple and consists of grain and water.
· Onee duniyaa tore bandhnaa ann paanee thoraa khaayaa: They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water (sggs 467).
· Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (Khicharhee) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat of a killed animal with his bread? (sggs 1374).
· Gurh mande kar seel ghiyu saram maas aahaar: Make virtue your thin bread, civility your butter, and the modesty your meat to eat (sggs 553).
· Giyaan Gurh saalaah mande bhayu maas aahaar: Make spiritual wisdom your molasses, God's praise your bread, and God's fear your meat to eat (sggs 553).
The Gurmat (Shabad Giyan or God's Knowledge) has divided all foods into two categories: Bhakh and Abhakh — Bhakh means those foods which are conducive to Spiritual progress, to the contrary, Abhakh means those foods which are unconducive to Spiritual progress. In other words, Saatavic foods belong to the Bhakh category, and Taamasic and Raajasic foods belong to the Abhakh category.
· Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee Bhakh Abhakh sabh khaaye: Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, Bhakh and Abhakh (sggs 50)

---continued

To justify Abhakh diet, the eaters of Abhakh often quote the following verse of Baabaa Nanak: "Maas maas kari moorakh jhagre...: meaning, the fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.... (sggs 1289).
First of all, have we raised our consciousness to the level of Baabaa Nanak? If someone has become Baabaa Nanak (that is, Braham Giani), then for him there is no questions or answers, birth or death, light or darkness, good or bad, sin or virtues, this or that; for he has become Living Liberated (Jeevanmukta). If not, then one needs every help he can get to reach to the mental state of Baabaa Nanak! Otherwise Naam Simran, meditation, Gurmantra, selfless Sevaa, devotion or Bhagti, scriptural study, religion, Dharma, Kirtan, Satsang, inner inquiry (Shabad Vichaar), and so on, has no meaning!
Second, as repeatedly declared in the Gurbani, the only cause of Jeeva's bondage is enjoyment for sense gratification. The Guru who has made this declaration countless times in the Gurbani, how the same Guru can encourage us to enjoy sense pleasures? He cannot. Because his only business is to redeem the humanity from their bondage, not other way around! A true Guru, thus, cannot contradict himself. All contradictions exist in our sense infatuated consciousness. If any verse of the Gurbani is viewed esoterically in line with the Spirit of the entire SGGS, one will not see any confusion or problem there.
The name "Sikh" is not a social status or a title; it's a state one has to reach. As repeatedly declared in the Gurbani, one cannot reach there with affinity for sense gratification. Therefore, if one is a true "Sikh" (Spiritual seeker), then how he or she can even think of sense gratification in the first place? Knowing that Spirituality and sense gratification are of opposing nature. Then how in the world a noble Spiritual Master and a Teacher like Baabaa Nanak can encourage any "Sikh" to engage in sense gratification? It is the instinctive or the desire-mind which has been swayed by the life's sensuousness entertains the exoteric meanings of the scriptural statements. In fact we are urged not once, but thousands of times in the Gurbani to kill this desire-mind which entertains the thoughts of sense gratification! Because, if we don't, then we cannot hope to Realize our Spiritual Nature.
Third, if we read the rest of the Shabad from which this verse is quoted, then we will realize that the whole Shabad was spoken to the hypocritical clergy or Pandits (Pujaarees), who pretended to be pure on the outside, but were impure on the inside. In their prejudices and false pride, these Pujaarees usually pretend of maintaining superficial cleanliness by, for example, protecting their body, kitchen or food from being touched by anybody else.

--continuded
The Gurbani time and again reminds us that the taste of the elixir of God's Name and the other taste of worldly objects are of the opposing nature. Accordingly, no true Spiritual Master will ever encourage his disciples to engage in consuming Abhakh which is unconducive to Spiritual progress. It is a shear jealousy that leads an immature and unawakened individual to act like being equal to the Masters. Perhaps not knowing that the jealousy only retards Spiritual progress in the seeker! Baabaa Nanak reveals the Truth to us as follows:
· Satigur kee reesai hori kachu pichu bolde se koorhiyaa koorhe jharhi parheeyai. Onaa andar hor mukh hor hai bikh maya no jhakhi marde karheeyai: Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak of good and bad, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood. Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they consume in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away (sggs 304).
· Kali hoee kute muhee khaaj hoyaa murdaar: In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting dead bodies for food (sggs 1242).
· Ras suyinaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas. Ras ghore ras sejaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas. eto ras sareer ke kai ghat Naam nivaas: The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood, the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of eating meat—such pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart (sggs 15)?
In the following verses, Baabaa Nanak gives us the characteristics of this age of Kal Yuga we are living in. Here he makes it very clear as to who in Kal Yuga eat meat of killed animals, and why they eat it! Baabaa Nanak declares that in this age of ignorance, people have mouth like that of a "dog", and, thereby, they eat dead animals for food as the dog eats dead carcasses! Because people are devoid of Dharma and Vichaar (spiritual or inner reflections or inquiry); consequently, we bark only falsehood!
· SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Kali hoyee kuttee muhee khaaj hoyaa murdaar. Koorh boli boli bhayukanaa chookaa dharam beechaar. Jin jeevandiyaa pati nahee muyiaa mandee soi...: In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting dead bodies for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies; Dharma and Vichaar have left them. Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die. Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: Women are made weak (suppressed by men), and men have become their captor or Sayyaad (Sayyaad means a hunter who captures the Bulbul birds and encages them). Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her. O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true || 2 || (sggs 1242).

For an explanation on -kutha and -halaal
go to
http://www.akj.org.uk/literature/article.asp?b=t&s=gurmat&f=srm04a

Contains explanations & quotes

"Fareed, the nights are long, and my sides are aching in pain. Cursed are the lives of those who place their hopes in others. || 21 || Fareed, if I had been there when my friend came, I would have made myself a sacrifice to him. Now my flesh is burning red on the hot coals. || 22 || Fareed, the farmer plants acacia trees, and wishes for grapes. He is spinning wool, but he wishes to wear silk. || 23 || Fareed, the path is muddy, and the house of my Beloved is so far away. If I go out, my blanket will get soaked, but if I remain at home, then my heart will be broken. || 24 || My blanket is soaked, drenched with the downpour of the Lord's Rain. I am going out to meet my Friend, so that my heart will not be broken. || 25 || Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty. My thoughtless self did not realize that one day, dust will consume my head as well. || 26 || Fareed: sugar cane, candy, sugar, molasses, honey and buffaloís milk - all these things are sweet, but they are not equal to You. || 27 || Fareed, my bread is made of wood, and hunger is my appetizer. Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. || 28 || Eat dry bread, and drink cold water. Fareed, if you see someone else's buttered bread, do not envy him for it. || 29 || This night, I did not sleep with my Husband Lord, and now my body is suffering in pain. Go and ask the deserted bride, how she passes her night." || 30 ||
(SGGS)1379

In that quote what does it refer to? Greedyness!! now my friends who has not adapted the 5 evils!?. You may notice with some Gurmat followers that they might as well follow the 10 commandments from moses!

Hiphopper Sir,

You have made some excellent points about humility and ego. This is my feeling on the matter.

hiphopper,
ur arguments keep fluttering from one explanation to another. one second roti is impure the next meat should be eaten in the forest when no food is available.

quite honestly i dont care if you eat meat or not.
my conscience is clear, in that respect at least.

furthermore, by you stating that you can easily kill a chicken, you have shown that there is something specifically wrong with your ethical outlook on life. the greatest western philosophers, Hobbes and Kant included, have shown that most people could not bear to kill an animal themselves to eat. Their conscience suddenly expands, and their arm quivers to the point where they spare the animal. obviously butchers are not included

in any case, with you saying that you could kill an animal in a split second, one cant question your conscience. either you lack one, or you have overcome your innate compassion that all humans have, for animals

whether you choose to stop eating meat is obviously your choice. if u feel strongly for eating meat, i say good for you. you seem to be an intelligent person. i just hope your reasoning extends past the religious quotations, and involves your sense of intellect, reason, and conscience...after all, God has blessed all of us with these faculties. By simply relying on fate is quite ignorant and shows that lethargy has overcome our intellectual abilities.

im sure you will make your decision wisely. but, stop talking about the "life of plants". because we all know they have life, but they are in a completely different category than animals as any sane person could see

best wishes in all your endeavors sir

Anonymous,

If the GGS says you should not eat meat as per Veggie interpretation. Look at what else it says you should not eat. One could say with this quote all food is bad by quoting the GGS-Why stop at meat?

Here are only 2 out of numerous examples

I trust you will stop eating after reading this bani!!!

"The attachment of all the visible objects is all impurity. Due to this, the mortal dies and is reborn again and again. Impurity is in fire, air and water. WITHIN ALL THE FOOD which we eat, there is pollution. Defilement is in man's actions as he performs not God's worship."
(Guru Amar Das, Gauri Guareri, pg. 229)

Therefore, spritual people should not eat any food since the GGS says all food has impurity. Right?

You think you are allowed to put butter on your roti? Boy are you wrong and will suffer for eating the butter!!! This is the quote to back up this statement right out of the GGS.

Shiek Farid pg 1379 slaok 27
|| 27 || Fareed, my bread is made of wood, and hunger is my appetizer. Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain.

So you see the GGS also literally says all food is bad not just meat. Isn't that ridiculous though? Shiek farid is saying that everyone with butter on thier Roti (bread) will suffer. Does he really mean it!? If so why is my roti at the Gurudwara come with butter on it? Any answers Anonymous?

The quotes presented propogated as anti-meat are just as ridiculous without correct context and understanding as These Anti-food and anti-Bread with butter quotes with a literal interpretation.

I challenge all Veggie friends to no longer eat butter on thier roti, No, but to nolonger eat anything since all food has impurity in it.

Praise God

HIPHOPPER,

You said: Even strict veggie people indirectly harm animals in attaining their vegitables.

That is the point: "Indirectly"...

But you eat meat knowing fully well what you are doing.

Anonymous,

You suggest that the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandak Comitee and the Singh Sabha, which is resonsible for the Rehat Maryada from Tha Akal, has less of an understanding of the GGS than you do!!?


Please explain why the Rehat only speaks out against meat that is killed the Hallal way? Why not be very clear and just say "ALL MEAT IS PROHIBITED!" not just a certain type? Pls explain the hukamnama from the Akal Thakt Jathedar Bhai Sahib Bhai Sandhu Singh Bhaura dated February 15th 1980 that Amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and also that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat. Is the Akal Thakat "the supreame athority" just not reading the quotes you site? Or do they read them in thier true context... like I have.

Pls explain with your superior-than-the- Akal Thakat understanding understanding of Gurbani thx.

Priase god!

hiphopper, your reply put nothing into perspective

The SGGS states that you shoud not eat meat.
your examples are nonsensical.

PCJS, my friend, i say give it a rest. u make muc sense. its just why are you bothering your head for their sin?

Veggie friends,

You should also then consider the amount of small rodent life that is displaced and killed to accomodate large pantations. All types of methods/including death are used to make creatures that are deemed a pest stay out of the plantations. Even strict veggie people indirectly harm animals in attaining thier vegitables.

praise god

hiphopper:
"Where does it say you can eat meat?" you asked.

"Where does it say you can blink your eyes, Or drink fruit juices, and pop. hmmmm I don't remember the Guru saying I can drive a car either but I do and I bet you do to right...?"

The point i was making then from that question was... that u keep on bringing up interpretations.. but is there understanding in the context of Bani. Why? may i ask! to justify What? .. A righteous cause?

what is this about a car? in the midst of maya i remain detached.

If you would like to practice anything.. u ultimatley have the right to practice it. But im here to stand up to people who BREED selfish acts. Do not provoke this.

PCJS Sir,

I have been reading this website for a while and I am quite capable of making my own mind up. You have admitted you have stooped down to the level of these abusers. I pity you, because I thought you were a mature young man.

I am not missing your point sir, I perfectly understand what you are saying sir. I simply do not agree with your reasoning. There are many cultures on this planet that do not share your moral values. That does not make them immoral, but simply that their moral's are different form yours. In this way my opinion is different from yours sir. I think you may be missing the point sir.

Liberation
to be liberated means to dwell deeply in the present moment, to be aware of what is going on within and around us "now". Practicing to live in the "now" cultivates mental purification, true understanding, intuitive knowledge and wisdom, truthful or righteous living, love, compassion, contentment, and bliss. Simply put: going beyond all contact-sensation-craving phenomenon is the culmination of enlightened liberation — detachment from causative Karma, Maya, duality, and ignorance or non-knowledge. Hence, freedom from all types of attachments or slavery to the false self and the desires of the materials world is liberation. Simply put: it is the renunciation of everything selfish.

It is sensuality, craving for prolonging the material existence, craving for wealth and power, fears, ignorance, selfishness, evil doings, having a perverted view of the reality of the world and passions — lust, greed, anger, emotional attachment, pride, enviousness and stubbornness (and their numerous variations) — that yearn for intense physical pleasures of the world is the origin of bondage and suffering (Dukha). The cycle of life, birth and death continues indefinitely until it is broken through proper living, and correct vision guided by the inner Light of True Knowledge. In other words, the evolution continues after the earthly births until the Jeeva (individual being) links back to its inherent perfection, uniting in prefect Oneness with his Unconditioned Being, as does river water when returning to the ocean.
Driven by hunger (of craving and passions), man sees the path of Maya's riches; this emotional attachment takes away the treasure of liberation (sggs 1014).
Man is bound by the chains of his own egotism, selfishness and conceit (sggs 258).
This is the nature of ego, that people perform their actions in ego. This is the bondage of ego, that time and time again, they are reborn. Where does ego come from? How can it be removed? This ego exists by the Eternal Law; people wander according to their past actions. Ego is a chronic disease, but it contains its own cure as well. With His Grace, one acts according to the Divine Teachings of the Gur-Shabad. Nanak says, listen, people, in this way, troubles depart (sggs 466).
Imbued with lust, anger, greed and slander; man abandons truth and contentment (sggs 620)
That humble being is true, who kills his ego (sggs 230).
The ego always desires the necessities of the household — reputation, bread, food, and position... The ego sometimes displays humility and sometimes seeks leadership to remedy its plight (Sufi Giani Jalaluddin Rumi).

Seva
In the midst of this world, do selfless service (Seva), and you will attain the experience of Divine Realm. Then, says Nanak, you will become free from all worries (sggs 26).
Through small-mindedness, we forfeit the merits of service (sggs 468).
Center your awareness on selfless service and focus your consciousness on the Word of the Shabad -- Naam or Gurmantra (sggs 110).

To Plant eaters,

Please do not eat too many plants as you may take away the very breath of life - Oxygen.

Please be careful as too many plants destroyed destroys the ozone layer. In the process Mother earth is being destroyed.

So any comments from the veges??

Observer on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:12 am, you keep missing the whole point. I am arguing that unnecessary killing is not more. Eskimo had no other choice.

Like I have said before with or without ego, non-vegetarianism causes unnecessary killing which makes it wrong compared to vegetarianism...

Observer, did you see me abusing someone, unprovoked? Then how can you assume I abused someone unprovoked? hiphopper is only telling half of the story trying to use it as an excuse...

People who abuse others deserve the abuse back...

Well I have by Guru Kirpa shown the correct interpretation and intention of Bagat Kabir in his Famous "Anit-Chicken" quote.

I have also posted the Sikh Rehat Maryada which is the Code of Life adopted by the Khalsa Sikh second to him adopting the Guru Granth Sahibji as his/her Guru.

Thirdly I have also posted the facts that Both Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Hargobind Rai Were avid hunters.
And that only meat which is made hallal, or offered to god as a sacrifice is taboo for sikhs as the concept makes no sence if the potency of the lord is understood.

If any Vegitarian thinks that He or she has overcome Ego because they are vegitarians. That is amazing. I know very many Vegitarians that have had no such luck. Even though they may have vaishnav diets they are bound by the 5 demons just like everyone else. So what does that mean. It means that Ego is not lost through control of the diet, but by sitting at the feet of your Guru. For me a sikh that means reading the GGS and doing Kirtan everynight. Without Naam, Satsangat and Mostly Guru's Kirpa...everyone has missed the Guru's boat...even our vegitarian friends.

-------
Anonymous who asked me if I would be able to kill a chicken my self. The answer is yes. I have not had the opportunity to do so though. I have always thaught that I would take up hunting someday. If Guru's will I will do so. I would like to do it using Archery as that is a traditional way to hunt and our Guru's hunted this way.

Praise God

Anonymous1

"Where does it say you can eat meat?" you asked.

Where does it say you can blink your eyes, Or drink fruit juices, and pop. hmmmm I don't remember the Guru saying I can drive a car either but I do and I bet you do to right...?

I hope that puts your question into perspective

Praise God

observer,
discussing what both that the SGGS and Geeta do not condone meat is not being egotistical.

This is a discussion. Secondly, no one who refuses to eat meat on the grounds of immorality says that eskimoes are wrong for eating meat.

the question that arises is when meat can be AVOIDED why isnt it being avoided?

peace

i put some articles up concerning Cruelty/toture of animals behind the scenes and also some writings in the bible! know yur facts and what cause u are supporting!--- through July 28, 2003 07/29 03:42am - 40http://punjabi.net/talk/messages/1/48871.html?1059486142
yes observer sir. Do not do deeds in ego.
Hipphopper.. many claim they worship naam. Many also worship naam without there hearts really on Naam(like a parrot). When the 9 gates are restricted.. Only then Naam resides in the mind.

The arguments I have presented interrelate to the gurbani teachings and its way of living. I have presented the ways of humility. Read gurbani in gurmukh and u will see the exact words against meat. Think about this.. Where does it say u can eat meat!?

Above quotes/words... are deeds/actions. Everyday.. ask yourself.. how can i make myself a better person. The basics mention in Gurbani are 5 evils, further more from these 5 evils..Simplicity, compassion, humility, unselfishness are there. Now tell me where is your love?

In the age of kaliyuga, is the mode of ignorance.. remember this The great known saints.. they did not have the leisure of vast agriculture like we have today.. i do not know there position...they are attune with all souls

Let this be known... from all the facts... do not opress or forcefully change God's works for selfish ends!! Again.. what will be our spirits.. cherdi kala!!

question hiphopper

would u be able to see a live chicken, take a dagger and kill it, skin it, and eat it yourself even though you could easily just eat a pizza?

just because u dont commit the sin of killing, nor witness the cruelty of killing doesnt make it wrong.

put aside quotations for a second. search your conscience

one day, if not now, u will realize the value of an animal

Furthermore PCJS Sir and Anonymous Sir,

I am not concerned with Sadhana. Does my not eating meat make myself a better person? In short NO! It is foolish to think so. It is a lifestyle choice I have made. I do not like the idea of eating flesh, but for an Eskimo where there is no greenery. Is he a bad person because of this? In short, again, NO!

I stress again, a man must purge himself of the ego, in order to better himself.

Anonymous1 posted this out of context. Reading it alone makes one think that Bhagat Kabir is saying that it is wrong to kill the chickens.

Here is the quote out of context.
"You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?" 1350

Here is the quote in its proper context.

"|| 3 || PRABHAATEE: Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? || 1 || O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice? The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. || 1 || Pause || You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay. The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? || 2 || And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque? Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? || 3 || You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery. Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. || 4 || "

Clearly Bhagat Kabir is talking to a Muslim about the reason he uses to kill chickens. The Muslims Make thier meat Hallal. For those who do not know what hallal is they should understand that the muslims main objective in making meat hallal is not the kill for food but to kill as a offering to god. Like "hi god have a chicken I hope it will make you happy please take this offering and grant us peace." Bagat Kabir says that God is in all so how can you offer it to god by killing it

2 lines after the quote Anonymous posted Bhagat kabir says.

"You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay. The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? " Yes so what has he killed?

Also bhagat Kabir says do not call the Bible false...If one reads the Bible you will find that Bagat Jesus Christ fishing to feed his sangat. Tell me Anonymous1 are you more enlightend than Bagat Jesus who was a SatGuru?

Again people do not take these quotes out of context to support a vaishnav diet. Always check peoples references and make up your own mind.

P.S.
Anonymous1. I am not trying to belittle you but only point out the faults understanding of the Gurbani. Secondly I do practice the basics of Gurbani. I meditate on Naam every day. I have been doing kirtan since I was 10 and also I am nearing the end of a Sadharan paath. I read about 15 pgs a day and am almost done. So I sit with my Guru every day.

Praise God