some local councils---in fact most local councils have punjabi classes on a saturday morning-10 till 12.

check it out and the teachers are supposed to be qualified teachers.i know some friends of mine whose children attend and those little ones have picked it up real good.

check your local education dept of the council. libraries have dual language books/alphabet for kids too.

Satinder,

We also have a 3yr old child and are bringing him up to be bilingual.
WHSmith, Birmingham has a great selection of good quality Punjabi/English books.

Regards.

Satinder,
search on the net for Punjabi learning. There are plenty of places on the net to buy such material

i WISH TO START TEACHING MY YOUNG SON PUNJABI AND WISH TO KNOW WHERE I CAN PURCHASE BOOKS AND OTHER LEARNING MATERIALS. I.E. ALPHABET CHART AND CD OR CASETTES. ALSO, ARE THERE ANY PRE-SCHOOL CLASSES OTHER THAN AT TEMPLES WHERE HE CAN GO TO LEARN IN COVENTRY?

Raaj - Vowels is one of Gurmukhi's strong points. Shahmukhi is lagging very much in this regard. No script is ever going to be perfect. Look at Roman, put and but...u does not ahve the same sound.
The issue with dots is: The principle of orthoganality. The nuqtas are a concept borrowed from Arabic. Applied incorrectly to Gurmukhi. Eg. in Arabic script: h, kh, and j are all separated by the position/absence of the dots. Whta do these sounds have in common-nothing. Same goes of ein, ghein; re,ze.

Now if you want to keep using dots then instead doing
j and z (similar sounds) use z and d, or z and r.
Or use new symbols all together.
By the way L does not need a dot or a new symbols. It needs (peir wich haha).
more later.

Okay, I undertand your concern about the representation of Persian sounds in Gurmukhi, but are there any other issues involved? Were there any other problems in the Gurmukhi alphabet that were serious enough to cause problems?

One thing that I can think of is the "addak" symbol (which doubles consonants). I often notice that this symbol is used very inconsistently. Often a certain word will be written using the addak, and then a few sentences later, the same word will appear without it... in the same paragraph! I believe this is a matter of spelling ambiguities and could probably be alleviated with standardization.

Now, about the Persian sounds. You stated that the Gurmukhi alphabet was incomplete in its current form. Do you mean that there are OTHER sounds besides the Persian sounds that are omitted from Gurmukhi? Because, as I see it, the Persian sounds are definitely included in the Gurmukhi alphabet and are not missing. The only problem is that some people would say that they are poorly represented. I, however, feel that the dotted letters are perfectly acceptable ways to represent these sounds... the only problem is that PEOPLE are not consistent.
And this is the problem we are addressing. By designing new symbols to represent these sounds, we are essentially trying to give these sounds distinct, individual appearances so that they are not confused with or substituted by other letters.
I think that the Punjabi language would definitely be written more accurately if the Persian sounds had their own letter forms. What I'm concerned about now, however, is the possiblity of successfully introducing these new letters to an alphabet which is already quite widely used and has been used for a very long time. On one hand, it might be difficult to have this change adopted by everyone. On the other hand, perhaps this is a better time than ever, with the rising levels of communications techonology, to do this.
Anyways, your opinions, reflections, concerns...

Raaj:
yes you got them all. z,f,kh,gh,sh and l. Q people could argue but I don't think it is needed. Soem thing I still want to stress is that not too long ago we used these sounds (before urdu came with the UP people and English, Persian used to be the official language of punjab).
To illustrate the point I know people say yuice instead of juice, and mazboor instead of majboor and jaroori instead of zaroori. so the sounds were there and still are (at least some of them, and if we combine both punjabs then they all exist).
A script would make it easier to remember for people which sound is attched to what. How do get these accepted? well i will try to make my own website and put these there. obviously i will solicit input from scholars across the world and have lesson in it.
It is not easy. bY no means a one man effort. That is why I am requesting that we all join hands in this endeavor.
regards.

I understand what you are saying. Spelling errors would be much less frequent if the Persian sounds had unique symbols of their own. This is shown by the fact that, although I always hear people say "bich" and "baal", these words are consistently written properly as "vich" and "vaal". Since the v and b sounds have separate symbols, people don't use them interchangeably.
In theory, there's nothing wrong with the idea of dotted letters. But in practice, people don't use them consistently. If everybody recognized the dotted letters and their distinction, then we wouldn't have a problem. But unfortunately, this is not the case.
So the sounds in question are SH, KHH, GHH, Z, F, and the retroflex L. Have I covered them all?
If we were to design new symbols for these sounds, then I realize one issue to be addressed is how we would actually introduce the use of these symbols, and establish them as standard writing.

Anybody - Would you be interested in trying to replace the dotted letters in Gurmukhi? I have been working on it and let me know if you would like to join in.

Raaj
That is the point I have been trying to get across. we must remember that Gurmukhi and Persian coexisted for about a 1000 years. And with East and West Punjab loosing one or the other our language has suffered. Let us not get into who lost more. But the agreement is that Gurmukhi is still the closest to the real Punjabi language, and if it the one that require least amount of modification.
Dots were only introduced in the early 20th century and was a terrible idea. So all I am saying that let us replace those dotted letters with new symbols, a minimum of thress and a maximum of 6 and we will be all set. Then will have a uniform way of writing.

Actually, Mr. Bains, you are correct to say that pronunciation is important. And I too feel that it is. Every word has its proper sound, the way it should be uttered and it is definitely important that these sounds are enforced in the use of proper Punjabi. Now that I think about it, when I said that I was not concerned about pronunciation, I was speaking in regards to colloquial language use, the way that everyday people pronounce words differently than they are spelled. This is something that occurs in every language. Certain sounds are simply easier to pronounce than others (k instead of q), and sometimes there are certain trends and shortcuts in language that result in sound changes (chris-chen instead of christian).
However, the same should not be true for writing. I think we both agree that words should only be spelled according to their correct pronunciation. Words may be uttered differently but they need to be spelled the same. In English, there are different ways of saying many words (advertisement, schedule, either) but there is only one way of spelling them, which brings unity to its written form. Unfortunately, Punjabi currently lacks a universal standardization of spelling and therefore words are frequently spelled in many different ways. This is, of course, especially true of the dotted letters. This is part of your concern, right? You would probably know the circumstances surrounding this more than I, but I believe that a major cause is that people don't acknowledge the significance of the dotted letters and perhaps only see them as optional. As a result, people spell things the way that they are commonly (mis)pronounced. Something has to be done to enforce the distinction of the dotted letter sounds. This means that spelling kharbooja instead of kharbooza must not be accepted; it must be labelled as incorrect spelling.
Anyways, I hope to hear your feedback.

Raj
I think you should also be concerned about the pronounciation. If you say you are not, then what is wrong with shahmukhi? or for that matter devnagri?
A script is just a bunch of symbols and we attach sound patterns to symbols. Gurmukhi help us relate these symbols to the sounds. In shahmukhi and devnagri these symbols are connected to differetn sounds. shahmukhi has one advantage of preserving persian sounds which are poorly addressed by gurmukhi and devnagri. so devnagri is a way is furthest from punjabi sound. if you are just concerned about sound then why not use roman. forget even my solution. use
k kx g kxx(2nd row) for example. But you know that this will cause confusion as to what is what.
anyway my two cents.

Well, in any case, I'm far less concerned right now about pronunciation than writing. It's just that, around me, I always notice that people replace the v sound with b, the z sound with j, and so on. Even when they speak English (zipper becomes jipper).
But anyways, like I said, I'm more concerned with the writing. So, I just needed to clarify the concerns you had with the Gurmukhi alphabet. I'm still not sure as to exactly which missing sounds you were talking about. Right now, I believe you are referring to the dotted letters, right? Thanks

Raj - I disagree very much. The change came with disappearance of the Persian script. My uncles born in the 1920s and some born in the 1930s CLEARLY pronounce
Z, kh+. g+. Q, Y, sh etc. The thing with Y and J is that some words have exceptions. eg. sanskrit is yogi punjabi/prakrit is jogi, persian is yaa, punjabi is yaan or jaan. there are many words in which people clearly pronounce the Y sounds. i dont know how punjabi these words are but Yojna, yoda are pronounced with y by a lot of people.

W: again you say it is pronounced B in punjabi. well some of that you can attribute to influence of hindi/urdu in the doaba malwa region. so in rural majha it is wechNa, and in doaba it is bechna(to sell). i would tell you that people do/can pronounce
W in those regions. Eg. bare is pronounced ware, birho vs. wirho etc.

Whereas if you at majha portion of pakistan these problems do not exit. But they have their own problems which you can say is due to the elimination of gurmukhi. And which for which urdu is UNABLE to address. Since you said you know shahmukhi you must be aware of these. Eg. kol (l+.), pani,paNi.
let me know if i addressed your concerns. I am glad that we are talking about this.
best regards,

Mr. Bains:
I am not quite sure if I know exactly which missing sounds you are talking about. According to my understanding, you are referring to the sounds produced by the dotted letters, which are SH, KHH, GHH, Z, F, and the recently introduced retroflex L. It is true that words containing these letters are frequently misspelled. I believe that one major reason that this occurs because, in spoken Punjabi, a lot of people simply never pronounce these sounds. This also applies to two other letters, V and Y, which are also often replaced with a J sounds in spoken and sometimes written Punjabi. For example, "yaad" (memory) is usually pronounced "jaad", and "vechna" (to sell) is pronounced "bechna".
When it comes to spoken Punjabi, this substitution of sounds is perfectly natural and acceptable, and it occurs in many other languages as well. However, the substitution of letters in WRITING is not acceptable and needs to be addressed, because if such behaviour is allowed, then Punjabi will end up having multiple spelling for a single word. This becomes a major problem when it comes to recognizing words written by other people. Standardized spelling is absolutely necessary in order for Punjabi to function well in the modern world. Without standardized spelling, one can experience a lot of difficulty looking up words in a dictionary, using a spell check, or searching for a word in a search engine, for example. Therefore, something definitely needs to be done to distinguish these letters in writing.
Again, I'm not sure whether you're referring to these particular sounds. But I definitely agree that people need to be consistent in distinguishing these sounds from one another in writing, regardless of how they may pronounce the words.
Anyways, I just need to know if we're talking about the same problem here. Was this the flaw that you mentioned needed to be addressed in Gurmukhi? Anything in addition to this?
Hope to see your and anybody's reply.

ps. It's true, as you mentioned, that "cchadna" (to release) is often pronounced "shadna", but what I don't understand is how this occurance is related to the use of bindian... (???).. or am I misunderstanding something?

Raj
i agree with you. I even made the point that the script was not even invented by sikh gurus. though their using it in their Baani help preserve it and they deserve the credit.
My only point of disagreement with you and others is that gurmukhi is NOT COMPLETE as it is used in its current format. There are not dots in Gurbani, and we need to invent new symbols for those 3 or 4 missing sounds that i mentioned. And it is ever more necessary now that persian script has disappeared from Punjab. If one is well versed in Persian then he can easily correct the mistakes of Gurmukhi, but somebody unaware fo Persian script will most probably mispronounce it. let me know what u think.

Hi,
Thank you very much Mr. Bains for your reply.
I just want to stress the importance of your statement that all Punjabis should learn
the Gurmukhi script. I believe you are very correct. I, myself, read both Gurmukhi and
Shahmukhi, although my command of the latter script is much weaker. And having
compared the use of both scripts for the Punjabi language, I feel that Gurmukhi is
definitely the better, more suitable one for the written language. I'm not certain, but
I'm pretty sure that Gurmukhi is already generally accepted as the primary script of
Punjabi around the world. This is based on the fact that every piece of instructional
material in Punjabi, including dictionaries and phrasebooks, that I've ever seen has
utilized the Gurmukhi script.
Furthermore, I can guess that Gurmukhi would be far more compatible with computers
than Shahmukhi, for it is written in the left-to-right format which is standard in
computers and is shared by the Roman alphabet. For this reason, Gurmukhi fonts can
be used quite easily in almost any word-processing program and, unlike Shahmukhi, no special software is required to be able to change the format to right-to-left. In
addition, the letters of the Gurmukhi alphabet do not undergo any change in
appearance as they attach to form a word. I know that there is sometimes some
adjustment required (related to the positioning of superscript symbols, such as the
kanna), but this is very minimal. In the Shahmukhi script, however, a single letter can
have multiple forms, depending on how it is connected to its adjacent letters, and this feature would also have to be accomodated in the computer. Of course, where only
paper and pen are concerned, both scripts are equally favourable. But as we shift
from the traditional pen and paper to a keyboard and monitor, I am quite confident
that Gurmukhi is simply much easier and accessible. (Now if only I were a computer
genius and could actually support all this with the technical mumbo-jumbo reasoning!
:) )
So.... in my eyes, what we need is for all the Punjabi-speaking people of the world to
learn the Gurmukhi script. We need to establish Gurmukhi as the single, official script
of the Punjabi language. Once we have done this, a great communication barrier will
have been overcome between the Punjabi people of the world. This will also give
Punjabi strength as a modern, written, spoken, and studied language in the world. Oh
how cool it would be to see Punjabi, in the Gurmukhi script, as a built-in language
option alongside Korean and Greek on my internet explorer!
Now, I understand that many Punjabi people may be reluctant to adopt the Gurmukhi
script due to its association with the Sikh religion. This is the main problem, isn't it?
So, here's the solution: Stop associating scripts with religions! We need to target,
destroy, annihilate, burn, crush, strangle, drop-kick, and ELIMINATE the connection
between the writing system and religion, for it is a major hindrance to the
development and progress of Punjabi. The Gurmukhi script is an organized system of
written symbols which represent the sounds of a particular language, and which is
used to write the Punjabi language. This is basically what any script is -a means of
writing a language. So where does the religious label become necessary? The fact is,
it isn't necessary. This notion of religious association only exists in our minds, and
infects our perspective of what is simply a practical writing system. We need to shed
this notion and try to think in an unbiased fashion. I am neither a Muslim nor a Sikh,
and the only reason for which I prefer the Gurmukhi script is that I find it much easier
to use and I suspect that it will be more promising in the future. If you are bothered by the fact that the word "Gurmukhi" means "proceeding from the mouth of the Guru", either call it something else, or get over it!
Anyways, I hope my words make sense ... one thing that I do know is that I'm not going to scroll all the way back up there to make sure! So let me know what you think. Tell me if agree, if you disagree, if there's something I've overlooked, or whatever. 'Cause, you know, as of yet, I've never had anyone come up to me and scribble "EXPERT" on my forehead with a big, black marker. And I really do enjoy reading and considering everyone's opinions here.

God bless, and Shukriya.
:)

Now to the main alphabet:

o a e s h

k k# g k$ ?

c c# j c$ ?

- at - - at - # & - at - $ *

t t# d t$ n

p p# b p$ m

y r l w r$

z f q sx kx

gx jx

Vowels:

~ ~~ ~~'

\ \ \'

i I

_ =

^ :





"(double consonant)

'(silent h) also h' e.g. l', m', r', s'.

Gurmukhi reader will have a learning curve for the last line of the
alphabet whereas Shahmukhi readers will have a considerable leaning
curve with the vowels, $ sounds and o,a,e,(n,*),(l,l'),(u,w) etc. We
can offset this with the help of dictionaries, spell checkers and
learning from each other. Please refer to my previous version for
Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi equivalent for vowels.

Let me first illustrate the vowels:

Ignore the consonants for now.

Roman Roman_Punjabi

Car k>r
More m~r
Slip slip
Sleep slIp
Pool p=l
Pale p\l
Fail f\l
Bad b\d
Pack p\k
Mike m>eIk
Mik mik
Lost l~~st
Punt p^t
Hammer h\m"r
Toronto tr>:t~
Put p_t

Now the consonant:

o~~h' (that)
a_h' (that)
e\h' (this)
srIr (body)
hr (every)
k_t"> (dog)
k#_r> (washroom)
grm (hot)
k$r (house)
- at - m>- at - r (tomato)
- at - #rn (to cool)
&r (fear)
- at - $~l (musical drum)
p>*I (water)
l=:* (salt)
tr (swim)
t#k\w>: (tiredeness)
drd (pain)
t$_p" (sunlight)
n_k"r (corner)
p>r (across)
p#r$ (hold)
b_r> (bad)
p$r> (brother)
m_k"> (punch,fist)
y>r (friend)
r_k"> (letter)
l_k*> (to hide)
wIh' (twenty)
k#r$> (standing)
zr=rI (must)
fsl (crop)
sxbd (word)
kxr>b (riuned)
gxm (grief)
Qlm (pen)
jx>l (wrestler)


addtional vowels:
m\'n=^ (to me)
s~~'d> (deal)
b~~h't (more than enough)
m\h'r (mercy, benevolence)
m'~- at - > (fat)
k~l'> (coal)
r'~- at - I (bread)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

t_h>&> kI h>l e\
(how do you do?)

jI a>eia>: n=^
(welcome)

b>l bcc\ r>zI b>zI
(kids and family ok?)

rb" dI m\h'r
(GOd's benevolence)

k~eI fikr f>q> nh'I:
(no worries at all)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof. Puran Singh (Juan Punjab de)

j_a>n p^j>b d\

e\h' b\prw>h' p^j>b d\
m~~t n=^ mkx~~l krn
mrn t#I: nh'I: &rd\

pia>r n>l' e\h' krn gx_l>mI
pr - at - \: n> m^n* kis\ dI
k#l~ j>* &>:g>: m~- at - $\ t\ o_l>rd\
m^n* bs" ik" a>p*I j_anI d\ z~r n=^
ak#r$ k#>:d alb\l\
t$_r t#I: stg_r>: d\ a>z>d kIt\ e\h' b^d\
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prof. Mohan Singh

j\ t=^ b\h' w'^j\: m\r\ k~l'
st" bhisxt>: d\* j\ m\'n=^
c#^& s_- at - >: m\: c$~l.

m_k# d\ t\r\ asI: w*j>r\
h~r k_c$ nh'I: m^gd\ pia>r\
p$>w\: b~l n> b~l.

tk" tk" t\'n=^ p#ir pia> tk">:
tk"dia>: tk"dia>: m=l n> t#k">:
lw>: n\*>: wic k$~l'.

e\d>: bh'I: m\r\ k~l pia>r\
tk" tk" t>r\ wI krn isx>r\
k~~* e\h' k~l~ k~l'?

j\ t=^ .........


m\: h_^d> j>: k_c$ h~r h~r
m\rI wk#"rI j>p\ t~r t~r

k~eI a>o_:dI j>w\ y>d y>d
ji^d h_^dI j>w\ s_a>d s_a>d

lk#" b_lIa>: rk#">: sIr$ sIr$
nh'I: l_kdI dil dI pIr$ pIr$

aj" ak#">: krdIa>: r~* r~*
t\ hik" kis\ dI t$~* t$~*

k~eI cr$d> j>w\ r^g r^g
m\'n=^ d_nIa>: j>p\ t^g t^g

jI c>h\ s>gr trn trn
jI c>h\ prbt cr$n cr$n

jI l~c\ o_&"*> ggn ggn
c^n t>ria>: d\ gl' lg* lg*

ji^d trb>: o_- at - #Ia>: lrz lrz
a^nI aql\ aj\ n> wrJ wrj

nc"* d\ ar$Ie\ ngn ngn
kI sc" n=^ a>k#\ kj* kj*

k~eI cr$d> j>w\ l~r l~r
m\rI wk#"rI j>p\ t~r t~r


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


r>:c$> r>:c$> krdI nI: m\: a>p\ r>:c$> h~eI
sd"Io~ nI: m\n=^ t$Id~ r>:c$> hIr n> a>k#~ k~eI
m\: nhI: o_h' a>p h\ a>p*I a>p kr\ dilj~eI
jis d\ n>l' m\: nio_:h' lg>eia> o_h'd\ wrgI h~eI
j~ k_c$ s>&\ a^dr ws"\ z>t as>&I s~eI
ci- at - "I c>dr l>h' s_- at - " ar$Ie\ p\h'n fqIr>: dI l~eI
tkxt hz>r\ l\ cl" b_l"ia> sia>lI: mil'\ n> - at - $~eI

pr$ pr$ msl\ r~z s_*>w\: k#>*> sxk" sx_b>h' d> k#>w\:
ds"\: h~r t\ h~r km>w\: a^dr~: k#~- at - b>h'r scia>r

ilm~: mia>: jI kh>w\: t^b> c_k" c_k" m^&I j>w\:
t$\l> l\ k\ c#_rI cl>w\ n>l' ks>eI b~~h't pia>r

e\h' pr$n>: ilm zr=r h~eia> pr ds*> n> m^z=r h~eia>
jis ds"ia> s~ mns=r h~eia> o_s s=l'I pkr$ cr$>eIa> e\

m\: k=k>: p> k#l"Ia>: b>:hI: n> h'~ gx>fl smc$ kd>hI:
a\s> crkx> k$r$n> n>hI: p#\r kis\ trk#>* k_r$\
kr kt"* wl" t$ia>n k_r$\

j\ z>hr kr>: asr>r t>eI: sp$ p$_l" j>w* tkr>r t>eI:
p#ir m>rn b_l"\ y>r t>eI: e\t#\ mkxfI gl'I s~h\:dI e\

shah hussain

sx>h' h_s\n

nI: m>:e\: m\n=^ k#\r$ia>: dI gl" n> a>k#
r>:c$* m\:&> m\: r>:c$ dI k#\r$ia>: n=: k=r$I c$>k
l~k j>*\ hIr kml'I h~eI hIr\ d> wr c>k
a>k# h_s\n fqIr s>eI: d> j>*d> m~~l> (also m>o_l>) a>p

m\: wI c$~k r>:c$ dI j>*> nI: n>l' m\r\ k~eI cl"\
p\rIa>: p>o_:dI mi^nt>: krdI j>*> t>: pia> ik"l\
n\ wI &=^k$I t_l> p_r>*> sxih>: t>: pt"* ml"\
j\ k~eI s>r mitr>: dI lia>w\ m\: ht#" d\ d\nIa>: c#l"\
r>tI: drd dih\ drm>:dI k$>a mitr>: d\ al"\
r>:c$> y>r tbIb s_*Id> m\: tn drd aw"l\
a>k# h_s\n fqIr nim>*> s>:eI s_n\hr$\ k$l"\

a>p*> a>p pc#>* b^d\ t=: a>p*> a>p pc#>*
j\ t_t$ a>p*> a>p pc#>t> s>:eI: d> mil* a>s>n

Bhai Gurdas

p$>eI g_rd>s

hikmt lk#" hkIm cl"* b*>weI a>ql h~e\ fhIm mt\ mt>weI
gx>fl h~e\ gxnIm w>d wt$>weI cr$ cr$ krn m_hIm a>p gi*>weI
h~e\ jdId qdIm n> kx_dI mi- at - >weI s>br h~e\ hlIm a>p gw>weI

Bhai Weer Singh
P$>eI wIr si^k$

sIn\ k#ic" jin'>: n\ k#>dI o_h' kd ar>m n>: b\:h'd\
nio_: w>l'\ n\*>: kI nI:dr o_h' din\ r>t pe\ w\:h'd\
ik"~ lg* lgI j>:dI e\ - at - ~r an^t o_h'n>: dI
wsl~: o_r\ mq>m n> k~eI s~ c>l pe\ nit" r\:h'd\

s_fn\ wic t_sI: mil'\ as>: n=^ as>: t$>h' glwk"r$I p>eI
nir> n=r t_sI: ht#" n> a>e\ s>&I k^bdI rhI kl>eI

Waris Shah
w>ris sx>h'

m>eia> w\k# k\ mi- at - #"I n=^ sxrm a>eI kx_sx h~eI s= b~~h't t$ia>n mI:a>:
m>eia> a\b c#_p>:wdI a> n>qs>: d\ m>eia> l>j rk#"\ hr t#>: ...
m>eia> b>c$ n> h\ k~eI b>:h' b\lI m>eia> b>c$ n> pi^& gr>: ...
m>eiad>r dI a>drI kr\ kxlqt m>eia> b>k$ n> l\:d> eI n>: ...
m>eia> b>c$ &_b"\ h~sx aql s>&\ kis\ fikr n> rh\ bj> ...
d>nsxm^d t\ aql d\ k~- at - j\h'r$\ m>eia> b>c$ o_h h~* h\r>n ...
m>eia> w>st\ dIn Im>n &~b* jin'>: a\h'mq>: k~eI n> a>* ...

jin'>: nfs m>ria> o_n'>: (o_h'n>:) rb" j>t> nbI wic hdIs frm>y> eI

hirs t~r$ k\ b=d n>b=d w>l'I drj> a>p fn>h' d> p>eIe\ jI


Sultan Bahu

s_lt>n b>h=

s_* fria>d pIr>: dia> pIr> m\: a>k# s_*>w>: k\ n=^
t\r\ jih> m\:n=^ h~r n> k~eI m\: jh'Ia>: lk#' t\: n=^
p#~l n> k>gxz bdIa>: w>l'\ dr t~: t$k" n> m\: n=:
m\: wic a\& g_n>h' n> h~:d\ t\ t=^ bkxsx\:d~ k\ n=^

b\adb>: kI s>r adb dI gx\r>: krd\ s>:c$\ h=
j\h'r$\ t#>l' mi- at - "I d\ p$>:&\ kdI n> h~w* k>:j\ h=
j\h'r$\ m_- at - $" qdIm d\ k#\r$\ kdI n> h~w* r>:c$\ h=
jin'I: isxq sh\r$ia> b>h= o_h d~hI: jh>nI: w>:c$\ h=

Karamjit Singh Bains
krmjIt si^k$ b\:s

lik#\ m=s> pr$\ wI a>p

rb" r>k#>
+++++++++++++

Raaj and other:
I came out with a second version and don't think i put it here. But here is what I have found so far:
People who can either read Gurmukhi or Persian script have shown little interest in learning a romanized script.
On the other hand people who can't read either of the other scripts and are non-punjabi sikhs for example have shown more interest in the script.
where does it leave us? If there are not takers then it make no sense working on something. So I will officially stop promoting romanization of punjabi.
Now to the script that have been used to write Punjabi:
Gurmukhi and Persian(also known as Shahmukhi).
Gurmukhi is a very ancient script. It existed before Devnagri. GB Singh has done research on this topic I you wish to look it up. basically it comes from a fusion of Dravidian script and the scythian script.
However Gurmukhi does not have some of the plus points of kharoshti script which Persian script does have.


All Punjabis should learn Gurmukhi script. It is not the script of Sikhs only. It was there before Guru Angad Dev ji as Baba Nanak wrote Patti. Which proves the point that it existed it at least Baba Nanak's time. Contrary to the populat misbelief that it was invented bu the second Guru. SO read GB Singh and Piara Singh padam and see their comparison of Gurmukhi with brahmi, devnagri, and other scripts and you would know that it was used by all Punjabis regardless of their religion.

From kharoshti to Gurmukhi we are missing a few sounds of Punjabi language which we can find in the persian script. persian script I would recommend to people if they want to study punjabi history etc. but it is nowhere near being a complete script. It has many many shortcomings in the vowels and many consonants.

Gurmukhi is almost complete except for one flaw. The use of nuktas or bindiaN. People can not differentiate which one is which which has lead to spelling and pronounciation errors.
To give you a few examples:
zaroori(necessary) is prounounced as Jaroori.
majboor(compelled) is ...............mazboor.
fasal(crop) .................phhasal.
phhaR(hold)..................faR
chhadd(let go)................shadd
So z vs j, s,sh vs chh, f vs phh are a must. We have to modify these in Gurmukhi. This is not a debatable point.

Then there are optional ones. we put bindi by khakha, ghagha. so the gh, kh, and Q sounds could be assigned new symbols. keeping in minds that how they are written in persian have different punjabi equivalents.


If you know Persian and read Guru Granth Sahib you will notice that the script was not used at it is used today.
Eg.
nazar is nadar instead of najar.
peighambbar is pekamar instead of peigambbar
aqad is agad instead of akad.
namaz is nawaj instead of namaj.
and so on.

I have worked on modifying gurmukhi but there is no way for me to put it here. I wrote to the institutions back home but nobody is willing to listen.

I heard that there is gurmukhi being taught in lahore grammar school which is a healthy sign. I hope that we can address shortcomings of gurmukhi and make it a complete script.
that's all folks. I will put my second version of roman even though I am no longer promoting it. But if somebody wants to borrow and idea and take it further be my guest, it will be posted after this message.
thanks and love to all my punjabi brothers and sisters.

Hello. I thought I'd share my views regarding the system of romanization of Punjabi proposed by Mr. Karamjit Bains. I am an 18 year old student from Canada. I was born in Canada, but I learned how to read and write Punjabi (in the Gurmukhi script) from my father when I was young. I am still in the process of practicing and perfecting my literary Punjabi, with the hope that my Punjabi skills will one day match my skills in English.

I also hope that as time progresses, so will the Punjabi language, in all forms of modern communication, including the internet. For this reason, Mr. Bains, I was intitially pleased to witness your efforts to promote the use of Punjabi. You have obviously put forth a lot of time, effort, and thought into this proposal and I commend you for your dedication.

However, after having actually examined the system of romanization that you devised, I simply could not imagine myself using it. Although it is a very complete, thorough, and well-planned system, I feel that perhaps we are better off using the Gurmukhi script to write Punjabi and avoiding romanization, or at least, this particular system of romanization. I am not sure whether this system makes it much easier for parents to teach their children how to read Punjabi. The children will still have to memorize a new set of symbols to represent all the different sounds of Punjabi. One might as well memorize the original symbols of the Gurmukhi alphabet, rather than the characters of the romanization. Gurmukhi is, after all, much more suitable for the written representation of Punjabi than any romanization will ever be.

But if a romanization is necessary, than I believe the best system would be one that uses only the normal 26 letters of the Roman alphabet. Not only would this look much more pleasant (sorry but I'm a bit of an aesthete!), but it would free all the other characters and symbols for use by people in their writing. For example, in your system, one can not use colons (:), slashes (/), and equal signs (=), for their original purposes in writing because they represent sounds in the alphabet. Some may believe that a mere 26 letters is simply not adequate to represent all the sounds of the Punjabi language. And it is true that 26 individual letters are not enough. However, it IS possible to represent all necessary sounds by combining letters to form sounds, as you have done in your own system (cx, tx, kx). I know it is possible because I have already tried it (otherwise I wouldn't be saying so, would I? :) ) But of course, this is only if it is absolutely necessary to use romanization, for romanization will never truly replace conventional Punjabi script, and according to what I've seen, I question whether it is even necessary.

You mentioned that there are newspapers which lack a font enabling them to write in Gurmukhi on the internet. Now, I don't know much about computers and the design of webpages, but I've always thought that there are plenty of ways to represent Gurmukhi on the internet, and in just about any form of media. Where I live, there is a significant Punjabi community, and Punjabi writing can be seen on pamphlets, posters, computer screens, bank machine messages, and many other places. I know that there are many Gurmukhi fonts available, especially through the internet. So far, I haven't tried all of them, but the ones that I prefer are the ones designed by Dr. Kulbir S. Thind. I have one called AmritLipi and another newer one called AnmolLipi. These two fonts have what I think is the most appropriate keyboarnd layout, and and I use them on my word processors all the time. At this point, the AnmolLipi font is my best tool for typing and printing Punjabi on my computer.

Another reason for which I've not sensed the need for romanization is the amount of material I witness on the internet in other non-roman languages. I've found that Chinese and Japanese are used very extensively on the internet (even hotmail and ICQ exist in one or both of these languages). And if languages with such complex writing systems as these can be represented in modern forms of communications without resorting to awkward romanization, then surely there must be a way to represent such a simple, straight-forward, alphabetic script as that of Punjabi without much difficulty. Or am I wrong? (again, I'm not a computer expert :) )

Anyways, please let me know what you think. Perhaps my ideas are too idealistic and unrealistic. Perhaps I'm far too ignorant to realize that the possibility of using that beautiful, traditional script of Punjabi is simply not compatible with today's techno age. And perhaps your romanization system really is the best solution because of some reason that I haven't yet considered. If so, then let me know.

And Mr. Bains, I would again like to express my respect for your work. We may differ in our ideas regarding HOW to write Punjabi on the net, but we both share the desire to be able to use Punjabi as a modern language for communication. Now if we all came together to strive towards this common goal... maybe one day we will have ICQ and hotmail in Punjabi! It's possible...

Bahut Shukriya :)

Karamjit is a real Punjabi Lover
I wish him all the best for the the work he is doing
I hope there are some more Punjabis who start thinking like him then we have won half the battle
Karamjit veer jeonda rauh

You can write roman & get punjabi script using the email service provided by http://www.mailjol.com .Service is getting quite popular and already has 50,000 users.

May I suggest that you post the answers to the questions asked so that you don't have to keep responding to the same questions. For example, I too
would like to learn the Punjabi language. Where, What
or Who can I learn it?

send me something in punjabi i want to know punjabi writing

Kavi Darbar / Punjabi Mushaira end of every month on net

Punjab Society UK is organising on monthly basis an International Punjabi Mushaira on the net
You will be able to listen if you have sound card in your computer and a mike to participate.
If you are interested the first Punjabi Mushaira ( Kavi Darbar) will be held on Sunday 30th April 2000 at 4 pm British time, the site it will be held is firetalk if you dont have it already please down load it and then install it into your system by going to http://www.firetalk.com and seting it up, if you need further help or wish to participate in this first ever Syber Punjabi Mushaira contact Ashraf on orange mobile number +44(0)797 0700 889 or visit our website for details http://www.punjabsociety.com to send your suggestions punjabsociety- at - hotmail.com

A message to Karamjit Ji
Maharaj I have been trying to get intouch with you for a while but there is no answer from your telephone
Since you have come back from India we haven't talked
the web site of Punjab Society has the modification to write Punjabi according to its sounds now< I thank Dr. Jamil Raza of Leeds Uni who has been helping me setting up this site. If you wish to check this please type http://www.punjabsociety.com or click here.
Look forward talking to you
Ashraf Mukhlis, Punjab Society

What does phunni mean?

What does phunni mean?

Fellow Punjabis:
The reasons I have been working on a Romanized version of the Punjabi script were the following:

A roman version would enable one to write and read Punjabi without any special need for a font or a program. This would enable us to use the mass media. I know many a newspapers in Punjabi are not on line for the very reason, need for a special font. This also keeps people from making their own web pages as it is quite an effort to make a web page in Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi or Devnagri.

We need a script which is able to represent all the sounds in the Punjabi language.

This script then would allow Punjabis worldwide to share and learn from each other. This is especially helpful for the parent who speak Punjabi at home in foreign lands but are unable to teach them their native script due to time involved. One the kids grow up and go away they loose any connection with their mother tongue. I am hoping that a Romanized version would make it easier for them to learn.

In the end I would discuss the limitations, some of my decision making, possible sources of confusion etc.

Please read through the whole thing before approving or disapproving.


First the vowels:

In English we have aeiou. These sounds do not adequately represent the Punjabi sounds and can cause a lot of confusion. I have noticed that some of the characters on the keyboard look strikingly similar to Gurmukhi and hence I will use those. And whenever you see the right parenthesis ")" it means that the sound it peculiar to Punjabi and it does not exist in Hindustani, Persian, Arabic or Sanskrit or any other language of the world that I know of. Then again we are all limited by our ignorance and I am one of you. So if you see any error please point it out or email it to me and we can keep on modifying this script until it is finished. No work is ever done but we can get to a point where we can start using it. FYI I am more familiar with gurmukhi than I am with Shahmukhi.

Vowels:

1) The underscore "_" will be used to represent the "u" sound in the English word Push. Same as aaunkar in Gurmukhi and soft waw or peish(zamme) in Shahmukhi.
An example in Punjabi is T_K (t_k means rhyme,sense,logic in Punjabi)

2) The equal "=" will be used for OO as in the English word Tool. Same as dulainkar in gurmukhi and waw+peish(zamme) in Shahmukhi.
An example in Punjabi is T=L (t=l in Punjabi means length or a painter's brush)

3) The tilda "~" will be used to represent the o+e sound as in words POPE and MORE. Same as hora in gurmukhi and fathe(zabr)+waw in Shahmukhi
Hence, the Punjabi word R~K (r~k means restriction, prevention etc.)

4) The backslash "\" will represent the a+i or e+i sound in the English word RAIL as in a RAILWAY STATION. Same as lawan in gurmukhi, yei in shahmukhi.
Example in Punjabi the word T\L (t\l means oil in Punjabi)

5) The double-backslash "\\" will represent the sound a+i sound in the English word CATCH. Same as dulawaan in gurmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is P\\R (p\\r in Punjabi means foot)

6) The double-tilda"~ ~" will represent the invisible "a+o" sound in the word clock (with a British accent not American). Same as knaora in gurmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is the word M~~R (m~~r means shoulder blade or scapula)

7) The more or pipe "|" will be used to represent the "a" sound as in CAR. Same as kanna in gurmukhi and alef in shahmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is K|R (k|r means car, motor car, work)

8) The lowercase " i" will be used to represent the "i" sound in the English word kin (family). Same as sihari in gurmukhi and kasre(zeir) in Shahmukhi. There is some subtlety here but will leave it for later.
Example in Punjabi is the word DiN (din means day in Punjabi)

9) The uppercase "I" will be used to represent the "ee" sound in the English word KEEL (a ship's keel). Same as bihari in gurmukhi and y(i) in shahmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is TiR (tir means arrow in Punjabi)

10) The hat "^" will be used to represent the silent N sound as in MONKEY. Same as Tippi in gurmukhi and tashdid+noongunna in shahmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is T^G (t^g means narrow, tight, troubled, distressed in Punjabi)

11) Double consonant will be used to represent the "u" sound in the English word PUCK (as in a ice hockey puck).
Same as adhak in gurmukhi and tashdid in shahmukhi.
Example in Punjabi is TKK (tkk means to see in Punjabi)

12) The colon ":" will be used to represent the silent N as in SM|: (time, sassa+mamma+kanna+bindi/nuqta)
in Shahmukhi (sin+mim+alaf+noongunna). Other example H=R|: (plural of houri or beautiful woman)

13) Greater than ">" sign is be used to represent the blocking "a" sound as in CH|> ( ch|a means pleasure in Punjabi). In Punjabi we add an arra after kanna and we add an ein in shahmukhi.

14) \\) will be used in M\\)N=: (to me). In shahmukhi it is only represented as M\\N=:

15) ~~) will be used in S~~)d| (merchandise,wares,goods for sale). In shahmukhi it is represented only as S~~d|

Now to the main alphabet following the format of gurmukhi.

O A E S H
K KX G K) na
C CX J C) na
T# T* D# T& N)
T TX D T) N
P PX B P) M
Y R L W RX
SH', JH', GH', KH', Z, F, Q
(The last row represents sound from Arabic/Persian and in the case of SH' also Sanskrit).

m/, n/, l/, h/, t/, g/ are peculiar to Punjabi again. The forward slash "/" represents a silent h.

Now let me elaborate on the alphabet.

S:: S\ (hundred), S|R\ (all)
h:: HR (every)
K:: K_TT| (dog)
KX:: KXRX| (standing)
G:: GiLL (wetness)
K):: K)R (house), pronouned as G) when in the middle of a word
C:: C|R (four)
CX:: CX\ (six)
J:: JiSM (body)
C):: C)_GGI (hut), in the middle pronounced J)
T#:: T#M|T#R (tomato)
T*:: T*^D# (cold)
D#:: D#R (fear)
T&:: T&~L (drum, musical instrument)
NX:: L=NX (salt)
T:: TR (swim)
TX:: TXKK (tired)
D:: DSS (say it, tell me)
T/:: T/~BI (laundryman)
N:: NiR~L (pure)
P:: PKK| (firm)
PX:: PXRX (hold it)
B:: B_R| (bad)
P):: P)R| (brother), in the middle pronounced as B)
M):: MRD (man)
Y:: Y|R (friend)
R:: R_KK| (letter)
L:: LPP) (find)
W:: WTN (country)
RX:: KXRX| (standing)

The " ' " means that the last two letters have been combined to form a sound.

SH':: SH'bd or lfz (word)
Z:: ZR=RI (neccessary)
F:: FSL (crop)
GH'::GH'_SS| (anger)
KH'::KH'R|B (riuned)
Q:: QiSM (kind,sort)

m/:: m/~T#| (fat)
L/:: RL/| (amalgamation)
G/:: G/bbNX (pregnant)
R/:: R/~T#I (bread)
N/:: N/\RX\ (nearby, close)
T/:: T/=T (mulberry)
H/:: Bh/_T (verymuch)
S|Nh/, K~h/.

Now you might be asking the question: why did he not use H instead of X. Well X in Greek is indeed used for H, but I have used X to avoid confusion with English. PH is pronounced as F in English but the Punjabi PX is a different sound than F. TX is not the same as English TH. I know that being a native speaker of Punjabi and being in the US for a while. RH is used in English and it is not the same as RX.

Variations/differences:

K,Q:: East Punjab will most probably only use K.
KH',GH' vs. KX,G:: East Punjab mostly uses KX,G. I suggest if one is not sure just use KX,G.
S,SH:: It depends. In Persian, it is shewa, in Punjabi it is sewa. In Sanskrit it is Kesh, in Punjabi it is kes. But we are not writing Persian or Sanskrit so stick with S. Maajha and doaba may also differ eg shagan vs sagan. The pronounciation may vary but the written from has to be the one from Amritsar (central dialect).

W,B:: some words in doaba and maalwa are pronounced like Hindi/urdu. Again written from has to be amritsari.

F vs PF:: East Punjabi may confuse the two.

Z vs J:: East Punjab mainly uses J. But since we can pronounce the Z sound in English it should not be a problem. However if you are not sure stick with J. Jarra instead of zarra and mazbur instead of majbur as examples.

JH':: This sound does not exist in Gurmukhi. It is like the "s" in casual.

SH' vs CX:: These two are distinct and should not be confused.

J vs Y:: Again we should stick with whatever has been used over the centuries and not try to copy sanskrit or persian.

May be we can record some sounds and put it on Punjabi net in the future.

L/, \\), NX, T), T&, P), ~~) are often ommitted or misused in West Punjab. BL/| (bl/aa or calamity is pronounced blaa as an example).

U,V,W can be confusing with Shahmukhi (C~L/ or C|wl rice), sual or sawaal (question). We should be carefula gain to preserve the Punjabi way of saying it and learn it from each other.

Will discuss the use of fathe,kasre,zamme, sokun or jazm at a later time.

Let me leave you with some poetry from Punjabi. Please look at it and give back you candid opinion. may be it is very good and we can all use it. May be it is useless and I have taken up unneccessary space on Punjabi net. But I am hoping that at least some of my ideas are useful. Happy new millenium to all Punjabis.

Heer Waris:

cirxI c=kdI n|l/ j| t_r\ p|:d)I
peIa|: c|t#Ia|: wic md)|nxIa|: nI:

Sultaan Baahu:

n|: m\\: hi^d= n|: m\\: m_slim n|: m\\: m_ll|: q|zI h=
n|: dil d~zkh' m^g\ m\r| n|: sh'~~k bhish'tI r|zI h=
b|j) ws|l rbb d\ b|h= h~r sbb)\ k=rxI b|zI h=

Bulleh Shah:

c=t* a|kxia|: k_j) n| bcd| e\ scc a|khia|: P)|:brx macd| e\
jI d~h|: gll|: t~: d#rd| e\ jcc jcc k\ jIb e\h/ kh/i^dI e\
m=^h/ a|eI b|t n| rh/indI e\

Karamjit S Bains
bainkar- at - hotmail.com

I am looking for a place where I can learn Punjabi language - I am not as interested in the learning the script, as I am in learning the speech. Does anyone know where I can either take language lessons in person, or if there is any sort of audio or video that I can buy to learn Punjabi? Thanks! :) Sath Sri Akal!

TO ASHAF ALI FROM SIALKOT
MITRA YOUR POETRY IS VERY NICE. I JUST FEEL MANY PUNJABIS COULD HERE PAKISTANI POETRY IN AMERICA AND INDIA. I KNOW IN THE UNDERGROUND WORLD THE MUSIC STORES IN COUNTLESS VILLAGES PLAY THERE MUSIC, BUT ITS HARD TO GET TO THE MAINSTREAM. MUSICIANS AND SINGERS PEOPLE LIKE ZAFAR ALI "MERA MAILA HOYA KAFAN NAHE HALLE, HATHA NU TU MEHENDI LA LAI" AND NUSRAAT FATEH ALI KHAN, AND COUNTLESS OTHERS HAVE SO MUCH INDEPTH IN THERE MUSIC, ITS LIKE SWEET MELODY. ITS INSPIRING MUSIC AND LISTENING TO IT I FORGET IF I AM INDIAN OR PAKISTANI. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. I WAS WATCHING A PUBLIC TELEVISION DOCUMENTARY ON ALEXANDER CONQUEST OF THE WORLD, AND THEY MENTIONED SIALKOT IN IT. AFTER DEFEATION POROUS ALEXANDER AND HIS TROOPS MARCHED INTO THE PUNJAB. IN ONE SUCH PLACE SIALKOT, THEY MET THE FIERCE RESSITANCE OF ANY PLACE THEY HAD BEEN. ALEXANDER WAS CORNERED ON A ROOF TOP AND STABBED BY SIALKOTIS. HE LATER DIED BECAUSE OF THE WOUNDS. HOPE TO HEAR SOMETHING FROM YOU SOON.

Does anybody know if punjabi last names have any meaning, I heard they represent what our ancestors did for a living back in the day??
any way does anybody know what "Gurpinder Virdee"
means?????? Thats Gurpinder Singh Virdee.
I've never met anyone with that name, all I know is that my mother and my grandmother got in to a scwabble over what they should name me, My granny wanted to name me "Govinda" which I think is a Hindu name, that is why they had a falling out.

re:Singh/Kaur
To Doaba Jat

Taken from: SINGH,GOPAL.A History of The Sikh People.3rd edition.The Gondals Press.New Delhi.1990.pg.290.

"Rajput Hindus have always called themselves Singhs. It is from them that this apellation has been taken, though not 'Kaur' for women which is typically Sikh. A whole beard and turban are (or, at least were) also worn by the Rajputs and a sword was their constant companion, till its use, as also of the beards and turban was forbidden to them by Aurangzeb, to which most of them submitted, while the Sikhs took up the challenge and made these an inseperable part of their religion. The meaning of the word Kaur (Kanwar or Koer) is Prince, not princess, as the Guru wanted to give women the dignity of the male.

To Jat,

Thanks for responding to my question of what jee aaiyaa nu means, I appreciate your help.

Anonymous Friends,
Your questions are as follows:

1. Could anybody please tell me what "Jee Aaiya nu" means, I mean what each word means. thanks.

2. COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE NAME ANURETA MEANS.

3. Could somebody tell me what "le gooni goo goo" means?

Answers:

1. Jee is somewhat like Sir or Madam, a word to express respect. AayiaN nu, two words go together that express "coming" e.g. to my place. The whole phrase means Welcome or Respect to you to come to my place.

2. Anureta, at least in my opinion, is just a name like Rita.

3. Le gooni goo goo is probably a phrase made up by a mother somewhat similar to "Koochi koochi koo" to cheer up a child.

Rab Rakha

Could anybody please tell me what "Jee Aaiya nu" means, I mean what each word means. thanks.

COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE NAME ANURETA MEANS.
THANK YOU

Could somebody tell me what "le gooni goo goo" means.

Thank you very much.

The name Singh and Kaur are older than the Khalsa itself, these names were used by most of the warrior class, especially across the NW of the Indian sub-contient. The ruling warrior classes included castes/tribes such as Rajputs, Jats, and khatris etc. Another form of Singh called Sinha is also used, especially around what is now Rajistan. The words Singh and Sinha refer to lion and are most probably Scythian in origin. The word Kaur used by the women of the warrior class is also most probably scythian in origin and essentially means Princess. In the past even muslim Jats and Rajputs would carry the name Singh and Kaur, but they eventually dropped it. Before many Jats came into the Khalsa fold they were already carrying the Singh and Kaur names. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave all people in the Khalsa, regardless of caste or religion the warrior status and spirit to fight tyrany and protect the poor, weak and righteous regardless of race and religion.
Also interesting to note the carrying of arms, Kara and unshorn hair was practiced by Jats many generations prior to the initiation of the Khalsa 300 years ago.

Sialkot d tahseel pasroor de ik qasbe Ali pur saida-n de nal chote j pind wich kei vera-n pele guzre ik soofi de kuj sher arz ne-n

-de-o ghusal te pero janaza ko-e ho ge-e foj tyari
te sub foja-n ker noo-n aya-n ajiz reya ujari

-jis kandi(wall) noo dha hamesha aj dha-e kal dha-e
wail(river) jina-n de wagan serane sukh na-n sonda ko-e
kook keta-n asmani meri kook sune rab san-e

-se(100) drekhta-n de ke-l peya kerda ki ik kira kun da
ghulam rasoola agga rab nu-n maloom sanoo khatra pe gya hoon da
baba ghulam rasool

Dear Alia,

You are correct in defining Singh, it means Lion. The word Kaur means a Lioness. These two are the middle names (very often used as last names as well) used by the Sikh people. On April 13, 1699 (Vaisakhi Day) when Guru Gobind Singh created Khalsa (the pure), he baptized Sikhs by giving them Amrit (nectar or Aaab-E-Hyat), thus demolishing all castes and creeds and making everyone equal (including both sexes). To distinguish the baptized Sikhs from the rest of the population, he ordered them to wear five K's (Kangha/Comb-for cleanliness, Kachha-a long underwear for controlled sexual desires, KarHa-a steel bangle to shatter all myths and to liberate the minds of ghosts/ghouls etc., Kirpan- a ceremonial sword to protect the innocent and the weak and believe in justice, and Kase (pronounced as Case)-long hair i.e. not to cut any hair from any parts of the body so that the baptized Sikhs can be distinguished from the distance). They were also ordered to use the two middle names Singh and Kaur for males and females respectively since the first names used by the Sikhs are unisex i.e. used by both sexes. The two names were given to create a martial religion (since lion is the strongest animal in the jungle).

For example Jagjit Singh is a male, Jagjit Kaur is a female.

Rab Rakha (May God Bless You.

Best Regards.

Can someone please tell me the real meaning of
'Kaur' and 'Singh'? I've heard that Singh means
either tiger or lion and that Kaur means princess.
Are these correct? Any info would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks!

Dear Adona,

Hopefully your son is doing well.

Good to see you back. I need to know the context here. Once again like in any language, one sentence can be said in many different ways.

"Yes" is HaN (N is silent here but it places emphasis on the long sound of "a", just like in Ma for mum) normally the word "Ji" is reserved for elders or older (in age, could even be a year. It is just a sign of respect to the person you are talking to.) people.

"I " is MaiN.
"Do" is karaNga (for masculine) or KaraNgi (for feminine). Just like in French the verbs are gender based in Punjabi. Usually "aa" (long A just as in Donna) sound represents an action by a male and "ii" prounounced as ee (same sound as pronounced by Y in the word city) denotes an action conducted by a female.

Please be more specific about the context to get an accurate translation.

Best Regards.

I need to know how to say, "Yes, I do", in Punjabi. Can someone help me, please. Thank you.

Many people here seem to request where to learn Punjabi language. I am not an expert but can try to help.

Punjabi is essentially written in two scripts, Gurmukhi in Punjab, India and Shahmukhi (Urdu) in Punjab, Pakistan.

There are numerous sites where one can leran this beautiful language. But here are a few of the sites:

To Learn Gurmukhi script

http://carlton.innotts.co.uk/~ukindia/zpun01.htm

To Learn Urdu script

http://carlton.innotts.co.uk/~ukindia/zurdu1.htm

Also try www.sarapunjab.com, where links to several other sites are available.

The capital letters in the middle or end of words are used to represent sounds that can not be pronounced using the English alphabet. There 35 primary sounds/characters and approximately 10 vowels which are add on signs to the alphabet characters (and more subsounds, I am not sure, beacuse some sounds are written with "Ha (H)" or "Va (V) sounds added as modifiers at the bottom of a letter) in the Punjabi language. Since English alphabet has only 26 sounds, therefore, we use many capital letters to stress on the sound (e.g. mErE (mine)-pronounced as mara where both A's are long A's as used in mare or even duplicate letters e.g. chh represents sh sound with a tint of ch).

Best Regards.

Dear Jat:
Many thanks for your help in the interpretation of my question. Actually, the meaning I was looking for was "Did it sink in (your mind). I hope you won't mind if I call on you again in the future. I have a son in British Columbia who is in the field of physical rehabilitation and he has picked up a little bit of the Punjabi language. His answer to my question was "sumjega" (I spelled it the way it sounded for lack of proper eduation in that particular language, but it sounded about right). Again, my thanks for your help. Perhaps, we'll talk again.

Dear Adona,

"Do you understand?" can be said in many ways. I am attempting to list a few sentences:

"Kee (tuhanu samajh lag gaii hai?", or "SamajhE? (Here capital E is pronounced as long A for example hooray)". Or a rude way,"Dimmag wich paii (Did it sink in (your mind)?)

Best of luck (Khush kismat)!

Can someone tell me how to say, "Do you understand?" in Punjabi? Thanks.

Ishq tere menu kamlee kita menu pul gaye sorey pehke,
sonaya sajna menu gal naal la ley netey menu ujri nu koi naa wekhey

Nee mein kamlee yaaar di kamlee.

Jenu labde sa oh labya nein, je labya te aap kwaach gayeh
jithe akal we dakhal nee deh sakdi asi uthe akhian laa beteh

Nee mein kamlee yaar di kamlee

BABA BHULLE SHAH

I have a new friend who speaks Punjabi and a little English. He is starting to teach me his language. Does anyone know of good books or language tapes to help me learn?

Thank you,

-Linda

Dear PK,

I suggest a common phrase to address people from diffrent religions:

"Rab dE piario, rab bhla kare".

The above phrase is unisex, does not distinguish between different age groups and carries religious annotations without any emphasis on any single religion.

Just a thought.

Rab Rakha.

Dear Robert,

The phrase you can use is, "TuhadE Pita Ji di maut te mainu bahut afsos hoia hai". (I am very sorry at your father's death).

There are many ways to express this thought in Punjabi just like any other language, bur the above phrase is simple, direct and is polite above all.

Best of Luck.

Hi wanna Say, " It would be better if you provide punbjabi fonts for download & then run this page using those fonts, making it easier to view, read & understand jokes.


Sat Sri Akal to everyone!

Dear Jasy
We did attempt to do that some time back, but a grand majority of Punjabis find it hard to install the fonts and read in our own scripts. Next problem is that Punjabis of Pakistan read it in Shahmukhi or Urdu script and East Punjabis read it in Gurumukhi. Many Punjabis living in other parts of India and the world do not read any of these scripts.
We would be delighted to find a third way out and to create a new script for Punjabi which is easy and acceptable to all Punjabis the world over.

Any suggestions to this respect could be posted in this discussion area but preferably under Punjabi Culture and Language preferably.

Meanwhile let us communicate in the "net" languages which is English - to keep the ball rolling!!

Most of my friends got Punjabi fonts installed so it will be better idea to provide atleast an option to read using junjabi fonts.

Punjabiat di Balle Balle,

We all should work towards writing Punjabi under Roman Script, it would be a difficult task and may take some time for the trend to catch up, but then, let us face it that may be the only acceptable solution to all Punjabis. I suggest we should compile a "Kayda", which should be in GIF format and loaded on the net. It should have Roman quivalent of Popular words and also their originals in Devnagari, Gurmukhi and Urdu. This would help in initiating a serious attempt on a Universal Punjabi written in Roman Script. Languages which have shifted to Roman Script have prospered - Look at Bhasha Indonesia or Bhasa Malayasia - they both are written in Roman Script only.

Simar

I absolutely agree with Simar.
Addition to Bhasa Indonesia & Malay; Turkish, Vietnamese and many other languages are written in Roman script (ei. the one you are reading and which is used by almost all major European languages).

I think Punjabi has not progressed in this century for we lacked one single script.
During the past centuries Punjabi flourished more for they used one script.

If we start using Roman script - we can reach to the widest possible audience as Most Punjabis - irrespective of their background or nationality or residence; can read Roman and if we start using a bit phonetically; it could be a big boost.

To start this experiment, publish your stuff in Punjabi - transliterated in ROMAN, at this site.
You can publish your poetry, prose and humour articles in Punjabi written in this script...

Pra-o
a-o hun asi romanized wich gallan kerye
te vekhye eda ki nateeja nikal da a
agar koi samjhe k kisi lafaz lai saee alfhabit naee use kite ge te o apni merzi de lafaz dase
astran asi romanizid punjabi noon naveen shakal de sakan ge.
rub rakha sub da

In an other site, we do it all the time. We share Punjabi poetry, tappey, dholey etc and it is fun. Let me share few lines of poetry here.

Poetry by Hazrat Sultan Bahu
****
"Tasbi Phayree tay dil nai phayrya, ki leyna tasbi phar ke hoo
Illum parya tay adab na sikhya ki leyna illum nooN parh ke hoo
Chillay kattay tay kuj na khathya ki leyna chillyaaN warh ke hoo
Jaag binna dudh jamde nai Bahoo bhaaNveiN laal ho nooN kuDh kuDh ke hoo"

Sona peetal mol na hoonde, tore bhatti wich pakaiye Hoo
Toonbe tarbuz mool na hoonde, tore tor Makke lay jaaiye Hoo
Kanwan de bachche hans na hoonde, tore moti chaugh chugaiye Hoo
Kaure khoo na mithhe hoonde Bahoo, tore sau mun khand da paaiye Hoo

"Kook dilla MutaaN Rab Sunnay Cha DardmandaaN dian dhahiN hoo,
Seena Mera DardeiN Bharya undr Bharkan BhaaheiN Hoo
TaylaaN baajh Na Balun MashaalaaN DardaaN Baajh Na AaheiN Hoo
Aatish Naal Yaraana La Ke Baho Pheer Ooh saDrun Ke NaaheiN Hoo"


What you think?

JSandhu

Pyare Ashfaq and J Sandhu bhai

1. Mera khyaal hai ke Punjabi nu roman lippi (script) vich likhana jyada mushqil nahi par agar thode bahut 'rule' ya 'logic' de mutabiq chalna theek rahega.

2. Punjabi vich bahut saare lafaz ya shabd, Hindi, Urdu, Turki, Arabi aur faarsi jabanna de hain. Mere vichaar (khyaal) vich sannu koshish karni chahidi hai ke sab to jyada 'common' ya mashhoor lafza da istemaal ya prayog kita jaye.

Agar koi mushkil shabd ya lafz istemaal karna hai te oda matlab 'angrezi' vich nahi te punjabi vich (aasaan bhasha vich) likhna theek rahega.

3. Sab to jyada jaroori hai ke punjabi likhan vich jyada to jyada 'phonetic transcription' kita jave (yani jistra boli jaye ostra hi likhi jaye)


4. Mai apni kucch pichhle dina di kavita, nazma urdu aur punjabi vich likhiya te ona nu roman harfa vich likhya te ode jariye mera sandesha kaafi loka taq pahunchya hai.
Yani mainu translate (tajurma ya anuvaad) karan di jaroorat nahi pai.

5. JSandhu ji

"Tasbi Phayree tay dil nai phayrya, ki leyna tasbi phar ke hoo '

Phayree = kaafi confusing hai?

ph or bh vich faraq hona chahida hai.

mai ik phonetic list banan di soch raha hai.
tuade vichaar da intezaar hai

pyare dosto
hindustani vich likhi gayi laaina nu mai roman vich likhan di koshish kiti si te eh ik Pakistani discussion list vich vandi gayi te kaafi dosta ne parhya aur ona nu samajh aa gaya.

Aistra hi asi Punjabi vich vi likh sagde ha:


"
ye kaisi ghataa chhaayi hai ?


Aankhe pathrai haiN aur dil bhaari hai
awajeyN bahut haiN shoroGul bhi hawa mei
dikhta hai sab kucch aankh sei
roshni bhi bahut hai lekin phir bhi
khizayoN mei ik Khauf ki dhundh chhaayi hai

Sab kucch chalta sa hai
tez daurhte haiN pahiye
sarhak pei halchal hai, bazaar mei bahut bheerh
phir bhi sab thahra saa lagtaa hai
HALAnki rut bahaar ki aayi hai

HaiN har ik insaaN kei liye kayi darzano kaartoos
Sab ko sulaane ko, maut ka hai har saamaan maujoud
kaale saye bhi ab dushman nazar aate haiN
Deeware haiN ghani khirkiyaN bhi sab band haiN
phir bhi dare baithe haiN Ye kaisi ghataa chhaayi hai

Siskati hai vahaN eik mazboor aur gharib aurat
krahata hai zism ek dukhi nauzwaN kaa
Uthaana parhta hai iq baap ko
aulaad ka zanaaza
ye kaisi dushwaar gharhi aayi hai

Intezaam hi intezaam, haiN bahut afsar yahaN
har kadam pe baithe haiN baaboo yahaN
sarkaareN bhi bahut saari haiN
aur raajaa haiN darzano
Phir bhi rota hai gharib kyuN zulm ki duhaai hai


PK Kapila (c) Copyrights pk- at - thinkers.net

Pyare dosto

HOW TO ADDRESS OUR FRIENDS

Mere kai dost mainu pucch de ne ke o apne doosre dost, jere doosre mazhaba vich paida hoye ne, ona nu kistra sambodhit karan ya kistra ona nu welcome karan.

Kyun ki asi 4 main dharma de log hai:

Sikh Hindu Muslim Christian

Can we device a new salutation for punjabi which is unique for everyone?

Pyare dosto

ik punjabi kavita tuade naam


Musafir asi ik raah de....


musafir asi ik raah de
kucch najdeek de
kucch duur de

kucch hasde rahnde
koi gam vich doobe
kucch khoye ne apne supnaye vich
kucch yaad karde apne purane safar

kucch pind purane mudH gaye
kucch anzaan shaharaH vich kho gaye
kucch meet purane dhundhde dhundhde
apna aap vi kho baithe

kucch kho kho ke sab sajo-samaan
faqir ho gaye nachde darvesh gaye

RaahaaN lambiya
ghup andhera
dikhda nahi hath apnaa
dishaa bhul gai
kucch eddar gaye
kucch oddar gaye
raahvaN badliyaN te raste badle
rang badle rivaaz badle
hamsafraaN de hath cHHuth gaye

roshni poorab di
vang sone di lau di tarah duur chamki
ronde apne bicchde yaaraaN nu
kai raahi vapis muDh gaye
pher milan di AAssaaN karke

par vaqt de raste sirf agge chalde
picche sirf andhera hai

uTTH musafir uTTH chal pei
tera kam hai chalna hi
rukna is safar vich nai
hale agge tera dera hai

ankHA poonjh te gathrhi phadH karma di
gam te dilaaN vich rahnda hai
Raah ban jandi appne aap
jithe musafir chal painda hai


pk (c) pk- at - thinkers.net

Pk ji

Tuadi kavita padh ke maza aa gaya hai.
Meharbani karke apni doosari cheeza vi sanu padan da mauka dao..

Pyare pra-o
any chup changi naee-n hondi
buzergan de kuj bol(akhan) nazer cho-n guzre san te o sochia tvanoo v sunva-n
1-Zat di kot kirli te shateera-n vich vasa
2-Na-n tu-n ayo toti (dhoti) ban k na-n me-n bethi chulla mal k
3-Chor uchaka chodhri te lundi run perdhan
4-Gal kere ji di na-n puter di na-n tee(dhi) di
5-Mangi sa-n me-n changi sa-n vya-e latha cha- buri me-n ta-n lagi je bu-a bethi a-
Ashfaq Ali

I have a Punjabi friend whose dad just passed away. I'd like to know a simple Punjabi phrase to write in a card to express my condolences. Thank you.

Pleas may I understand the usage of Capitals inthe middle and end of words in emails posted on this net?