I have been trying to follow this thread for a while, but I
get confused for a number or reasons. It seems like we
are moving backwards due to forgetting some of the
insights we have learned before.

First, the use of the word “traditional” confuses me.
Often people who use the word “traditional” do so as a
sort of power play. To call one’s own style/
performance/ knowledge “traditional” in effect is a grab
for power, since in this case “traditional” is considered
to be “more true/authentic” and generally better. Notice
how for some aspects of life, say in “folk music,”
“traditional” is deemed better. In other aspects, say in
describing a hospital, “modern” is considered better.
My point is that these words “traditional’ and
“modern” are used to make value judgements. Often in
the Punjabi diaspora, both “traditional” AND “modern”
combined is a popular concept. Makers of new Punjabi
music and dance like to think they are taking the “best
of both”: “traditional” equals the Indian-- India is
suppossed to embody tradition, to be relatively
unchanging, which is so far from the truth, a stereotype
spread by Orientalists since the 19th century.
“modern” equals “the West.”-- in places like America,
people are suppossed to be less caring about upholding
tradition, so that while one gets the benefit of
technology, being here only serves to continually
threaten and corrupt “tradition.” This idea, especially
popular with old chaachi-s and daadi-s, is surprisingly
widespread among other people, especially when it
comes to looking at the material products of culture (like
folk dance).

So I think we must be especially careful when we use
these two words “traditional’ and “modern.”
Sometimes for the sake of convenience we just have to
use them, but it may be better to just describe what sort
of dancing we are talking about. For example, in things I
have written, I actually use the phrase “Modern
Bhangra” to refer to the general mode of performing
Bhangra in Punjab that was invented in the 1950s. It is
“modern” because the genre is a product of the modern
era, which is characterized by nationalism, putting
culture up on a stage, and so forth. Note that “modern”
never means “the newest,” and should not be used that
way. If you want to talk about recent styles, you could
say “contemporary” or “new” or “recent” or something.

continued...

[continued from below]

The problem (or another problem) with “traditional” is
that people using that word often have a very active
imagination. In their imagination, the dance they are
talking about went unchanged for centuries, until a
certain point where suddenly something caused all sorts
of changes. They then assume that to define traditional
is a pretty easy task. All you have to do is compare
what you have to the way you think/know/IMAGINE
the dance was at SOME point before the Great Change.
The problem with this is that the genres never stay the
same. The Bhangra of 1850 was surely different than
the Bhangra of 1870. There is no authentic “original” or
“master copy” with which to compare. So when we are
identifying something as “traditional” it is really a
haphazard process of discovering traits that books and
certain older artists say is traditional, along with some
speculation and imagination thrown in for good measure.

A “tradition” is some act that is generally repeated
regularly , that retains some key elements over a certain
length of time. The length of time varies as to how long
it must be to be for the activity or ritual to be considered
a tradition. Sometimes people have the idea the very
first time that they do something that it WILL be a
tradition, and act accordingly. An author named
Hobsbawm came out with a very insightful book called
“The Invention of Tradition.” While people commonly
think of traditions as activities where they have no idea
how they started, there are also “invented traditions,”
which are traditions intentionally formed at a certain
time, often for some official reason. I see stagi Bhangra
dance in Punjab as an invented tradition. In the 1950s,
the Maharaja of PEPSU called together some dance and
music artists displaced by Partition, and asked them to
put together entertainment (i.e. spectator) routines using
bit of what they knew from various Punjabi group
dances and Bazigar tamaashas, etc. The intention was
that this new tradition of FOLKLORIC dance would be
an icon to represent Punjab in national events (like
Republic Day) and such. So they eventually called it
Bhangra, and a lot of changes have occured since then.
Its place in college competitions really probably firmed
up this new tradition the most, since so much became
less flexikble and more institutionalized. I think it is
possible to look at Bhangra dance IN PUNJAB since the
1950s as one tradition--the concept has stayed the same.
Anything called ‘bhangra’ before that I think is def. a
diff. tradition. I also think the diaspora style has created
a new tradition. Within the history of each of these
traditions there has been constant change. It would be
nice if we could refer specifically to diff. styles, like the
style of the early Bhangra teams in the late 1950s,
versus the college competition style since the 1970s.
We could maybe refer to 1) Old Bhangra 2) Punjabi
Bhangra 3) Foreign Bhangra, or however we want to
label these distinctly diff. streams of tradition. But in a
way, they are ALL “traditional”

I am addressing the question of this page, about "our
traditional folk dance." I have found the term
"traditional" to be basically irrelevant or redundant. In
the future I will address the other parts of the phrase,
"folk," "our" and so on...

Gabbah

P.S. This page is so long. Is there a way to start a new
one without losing all the important info on this one?

Aulakh,

it would be interesting to ask jaspal singh if there is any description of this dance form spoken of in the ancient texts or if its just given as a dance done in a circle (that wouldn't help much as ALL folk dances from around the world are performed in a counter-clockwise circle). From what i read somewhere Bhangra is supposed to be one of the "newer" folk dances where jhummar and the such are older. Anyone have any more info on this?

I agree with anonymous Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:20 am. statements need to backed up. Gibb pointed something out before that many "scholars" in Punjab don't have any factual evidence for their claims in the way of field research or historical facts. If one author writes something everyone else copies the same thing in their book or "research" work and its then taken to be fact over the years because "everyone is saying it".

Aulakh,
Fascinating info. Thanks for getting in touch with Dr. Singh and sharing his feedback. What do you think about all the info with respect to how folk dances evolved over time? Do you think there was a collective dance of men and women that centuries later, discouraged women from participating? Do you know the oldest remnants of that folk tradition (i.e. whether we can get info through old songs, stories, or other info in these ancient texts that may shed light on their history and evolution?)

Anon:

I contacted Dr. Jaspal Singh with my question, and this was his response:

"Rig Veda is the oldest book that is around. As you know that greater part of Rig Veda was composed in Punjab and what is known today Afghanistan.

A whole epoch known as Stri Yuga(Age of Women) passed before patriarchy and Rig Veda came into being. we get references to it in Rig Veda, Vayu Purana and other texts. And we also see glimpses of women participating in dances and other collective art forms. Although Rig Veda tells us that patriarchy has come into being but matriarchy is very strong. As late as Mahabharata lineage is known through mother. For example Bhishm is known as Ganga Putra.

Brahminism starts emerging in the 10th Mandal of the Rig Veda. Later texts decpict this situation, for instance Yajurveda and Atharv Veda are more Brahmanical than Rig Veda.

Folk dances and art forms of the time represent these changes. For example plays by Mudra Rakshas around 5BC depict this well.

Folk dances of the time one of which later came to be known as Bhangra reflect these changes.For instances by the time of invasion of Alexander this folk dance is mostly done by men. Greek writers who write about Alexander and who accompanied Alexander write about it. Our folk tradition and folk tales also mention this. Panchtantra also hints at this.Of course it is not called Bhangra, just like the language of Punjab of those days is not called Punjabi, it is called Prakrit."

Anonymous:

In order to understand more deeply the principle difference between modern Bhangra and traditional Bhangra, I would definitely consider participating in modern Bhangra.

Aulakh,
If the article can't point out a specific reference to 'bhangra' in any historical text, (be it Mahabharata or any other text), it just means the author is equating any reference to dancing in the Punjab to bhangra and that, of course, is a weak argument. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a folk dance being performed in Punjab or any other region in India that dates back to those times, but to say that the dance was bhangra needs to be backed up. Is the article part of a book? Maybe he talks about it in more detail.

While you're on the topic of women and bhangra, I wanted to share something I recently read. I was reading an article by Dr. Jaspal Singh, and he was describing the role of women in bhangra. He stated that in the olden times (I mean OLDEN times), women were commonly seen doing bhangra, as alluded to in the Mahabharata. During the rise of Brahminism and the caste system, women were cut out of bhangra and confined to only domestic chores (churning butter, cooking, etc). Perhaps this is where the advent of giddha came from, women displaying their frustration with society? I'm not sure exactly what time period he was referring to, because he jumps from 'the rise of Brahminism', which was around 6-7 Cent. AD I believe (correct me if i'm wrong), to the invasion by Akbar, which wasn't until the 1600s.

So, assuming that Dr. Jaspal Singh is correct, is it really THAT untraditional? Obviously, since he is talking about women how many thousands of years ago, I'm sure that they danced a completely different kind of bhangra than we see today, so maybe that form was more 'feminine'. Of course, I'm just guessing, so who knows for sure. Maybe someone can elaborate on this historical point?

Here is the excerpt from Dr. Jaspal Singh's article:

"With the changing times, the themes and stories acted out in Bhangra have also been transformed. With the rise of patriarchy and the Brahmanical order, it became common for only men to participate in Bhangra. Women were excluded from it and confined to the four walls of the house or to doing chores such as bringing water from the well or taking food to the fields for men. This change in gender roles is also reflected in Bhangra. In Bhangra scenes also, women are portrayed as doing domestic work such as churning milk, going to the well, or taking food to the fields for men. As the exploitation of peasantry by the excessive taxation of local kings and the invasions of marauders became the order of the day, Bhangra also depicted these new social conditions. During the reign of the of the emperor Akbar, Dulla Bhatti and his friends are shown as doing Bhangra to celebrate their revolt against Akbar. Since then, the eulogy of Dulla Bhatti and Jaimal Fatta and their exploits against Akbar became integral part of Bhangra as reflected in the Boliyan."

Tejinder,
Would you ever consider participating in a modern bhangra?

Bhangra Queen,

Maybe i'm wrong in your opinion but maybe you're wrong according to mine, right? No, I haven't seen the Bhangra teams you are talking about but I have seen women do Bhangra (both real bhangra and hybrid bhangra, or x-bhangra or what ever you want to call it). In my opinion, women don't look very feminine dancing like men. I like my women to be just that, women. No manly ladies for me, thank you very much. That might appeal to some people, but it doesn't appeal to me at all. Would men look good doing kiklee in your opinion? Since you are a bhangraqueen opposed to a Giddhaqueen maybe you could give us your opinion as to why women prefer to dance like men in North America? Do you think its because people have the misconception that Bhangra is a Punjabi Dance when it is actually a Punjabi Men's Folk Dance? Anonymous March 7, 2003 (5:47 AM), had some good ideas. Let's hear yours.

Bhangra Kick Ass:

I was also as disappointed as you are when I read your earlier posts. Two quick things I want to tell you before I move forward. If you think I want people like you, having different opinions, stop visiting this board, it is also because you “don't see a point in having these discussions”. If you don't see any point in these discussion then why do you write. You, yourself, wrote this not me.

Secondly, the board is for discussing Bhangra and other folk dances but we got stuck on your skills of making assumptions only. If from my past posts you think I might try to change your mind, your posts might make me think the same way. You, too, are trying to convince everyone that there is no harm in hybrid Bhangra. I just love to talk, share, learn not only from like-minded people but also from opposite view people too. That was the reason why I asked you to meet me so that we can SIT AND DISCUSS it.

Now if you are really serious about discussion, let’s discuss our folk dances rather than your ‘assumption’ skill sets. One thing I agree with you is that it is really easy time discussing with like-minded people but it won’t do any good. That is exactly the point why all of us are here. Our writing here won’t stop you from dancing hBhangra but definitely you might have learned/known few more things than you did before you visited this board.

I am not sure whether or when we will meet but let me ask you one question to put our discussion back on track, “Is there any harm in telling people what our traditional folk dances are and how were/are they danced?”

Tejinder,

I must say I was rather disappionted to read ur reply to me. yes, I made assumption about you trying to change my mind rather than having an open mind youself, but it wasn't a baseless assumption. It was based on your opinions in your past posts. As for making assumptions, I see nothing wrong with that too. I see the skill of making assumptions as a very handy tool in life, especially in my field of study it proves to be very useful. Now as for my 2nd assumption of taking TSD as you; that was just a simple mistake that could've been made by anyone.
As for meeting ya, I do not have any time right now but i could've definately considered it for the summer coming up but not sure now. It seems like you really shoot down someone with opposing opinion on this discussion board. If you'd really like people like me who have different opinion to stop visiting this board, what purpose does this board serve then? I'm sure you'd have really easy time discussing with like-minded people but it won't do any good.

There is nothing wrong with girls doing bhangra! Tejinder the SFU Girls are no longer together, b/c they have all moved on with their lives retiring from the SFU girls team. TSD: you are so wrong when you say girls look funny doing bhangra, have you not seen the UIBC Girls and the SFU girls? I know a lot of girls who do bhangra!

Not a mom:

I live in Surrey and I have read the issue of aajmag that you are referring here. I have seen girls of SFU dancing about 8 years back and they were good. I am student of folk dances and want to know and learn more about them. I am also interested in learning about the perspective of these folk dances (if they are considered Bhangra as folk dance??) from individuals who are or have been on these teams. But the problem here is that they think they are the ultimate authority on the dance; unfortunately not many of them really are. I would love to start a project we both traditional teams and hybrid teams can get together, exchange ideas and discuss why there is need to learn traditional Bhangra and have a baseline or why should the already hybrid Bhangra be made more hybrid.

But to say is one thing and do it is another thing. Take example of ‘Bhangra Kick Ass’; he is living in Vancouver and claims to have danced on many school and universities teams; knows traditional Bhangra but wants to dance hybrid Bhangra. I offered him to meet me so that we can discuss and learn from each other. See my post for Thursday, January 23, 2003. What a tragedy, he has already made some presumptions about myself and thinks that I will try to convince him to change his opinions. If there is weight in my logic and reasoning and he has open mind, he should them accept it but not meeting me out of fear that I will make him convince is really not the right attitude.

From what I understand, you seem to live in BC too. If possible, why can’t you help me out in meeting these teams (if you know anyone), learning and discussing our folk dances? I think it will be good experience both of them and me. You will find my email address on this page. If not, let me know and I will post it again.

Anonymous March 7, 2003 (5:47 AM),

Great posting. A few comments. I don’t think that all of Bhangra is necessarily more masculine than hybrid bhangra. It just doesn’t “look” right when women do it. Many bhangra actions require a lot of grace that we don’t always associate as “masculine”. And I agree malwaina da giddha is definitely a women’s dance. If you’ve seen Malwai Giddha you’ll see the “manliness” right away. That was a great way to put it; Hybrid bhangra is unisex. My whole problem is with calling it bhangra.

Maybe the next bhangra competition should have a separate giddha competition? Giddha competitions in Punjab are very common. I realize the problem you say of kids raised in America not being able to sing bolis. But there are ways around this. If bhangra is danced to prerecorded music why can’t giddha? There are many tapes from India available with women doing giddha boliyan. I see nothing wrong with lip-syncing.

But we need to remember that giddha like bhangra has become a “stagi” dance, with grand entrances, choreography and such. But I think it’s an effort we should definitely make. We should encourage little girls to learn giddha.

TSD

Tejinder Singh,

I don't know where you live(sorry, I didn't read that far down, just the last few posts and I was half asleep), but try checking out www.aajmag.com It is a site for Aaj Magazine which is based in Vancouver, B.C. and they just recently did an article of Bhangra teams. All the BC universities(actually most Canadian universities) have both guys and girls bhangra teams. I've personally seen the SFU girls and they are very good. Aaj mag also had the numbers for the teams and I think there were also some sites you can check out.

Bhangra is just more fun than giddha. Also, I think giddha is associated with our mothers where you have to know boliyan and of course the spitting action with your mouth as you bend over and slap your hands together. joking. Bhangra is non-stop unlike giddha but I'm sure you've noticed that boliyan mixed songs are very popular for dancing.

Hi Tejinder,
I will definitely email you as soon as I can. As for punjabi.net, I think I am done with it, haha as I seem to have turned out to be more of a computer addict than my kids and husband. I also called Shaw and they informed me that "yes" some areas share IP addresses. Now that that confusion is cleared up...I want to to wish everyone a good night, and good luck in clearing up this controversy over bhangra. I came on here to clear up any misunderstanding about Duniya, and I think that Tejinder and I have come to a mutual consensus that Duniya is a non profit organization that looks for the benefit of the child (often subsidizing children who can not afford to learn how to dance) and they do not benefit themselves. Thanks everyone, Good night! PS> "If you have talent, flaunt it!"

Bhangra Kick Ass:

It is sad that you post your thoughts on this forum with some pre-assumptions about others. This definitely is not a sign of healthy discussion environment. Here was what I proposed to you, “I would like to see your traditional bhangra performance first and then the hybrid bhangra performance. Reason to see both the performances is that I definitely want to analyze these two performances and map out the difference between your traditional and hybrid performance. Once the differences are mapped out, then both of us can sit and discuss what social/geographical/economical/political changes might have impacted your dance style and how you imbibed them in your hybrid dance form. As I am writing this, I am really feeling excited if you can work with me about this. You sounds pretty good candidate for me to work with to understand the thought-process of people who are dancing Bhangra in colleges and universities across North America.”

On meeting you, I wanted to see your performances and then “SIT AND DISCUSS” the changes that have impacted your dance style rather than forcing my opinion on you. I am really struggling to understand how your genius mind came up with this: “i didn't pick up on that offer for the same reason b/c it seemed like ur mind was already made up and only thing u hoped to achieve from that was to convince me to change my opinions rather than u having a open mind.”

I will suggest you two things; first, don’t start making all these assumptions and secondly if you “don't see a point in having these discussions”, please refrain from visiting this page after you have read this post. This will help others too.

Should I also presume that you are bit afraid to even meet me because you really can’t show me both your ‘traditional’ performance and ‘hybrid’ performance? I will even doubt if you have even performance ‘traditionally’. But because you “respect the idea of keeping Bhangra traditional since I think it would help preserve it and not be lost in western culture”, and because I don’t have same bad habit of making assumption like yours, I will not let me thoughts wander away with such questions (preassumptions) and waste everyone's time.

Tejinder

1) Why are girls into Bhangra only and not into Giddha, Kikkli or Sammi, especially in North America?
and 2) ...why do we only have only one form of folk dance promoted in North America?

-(1) Movements. In cultural shows, you will see more hybrid bhangra, which usually entails the same movements that both men and women do, whereas traditional bhangra which may consist of more masculine movements that may appear more appropriate for males, and traditional giddha, which consists of more feminine movements that may appear more appropriate for females. Hence, the obvious choice of doing this new "western" bhangra suits both men and women as an equal playing ground because the movements may not be distinctly overly masculine or overly feminine...obviously, not applicable across the page to every dance but a possibility I guess
- (2) Competitions. As far as competitions, I haven't seen a single giddha competition. I've seen many bhangra competitions and many teams may include a small giddha in them, but for the most part, it's not even visible compared to bhangra so it would be hard to generate interest in something you don't even see!

3) What should be done/should have been done to promote Giddha, Sammi or Kikkli?
- (1) Teachers. Can't learn something if you don't know where to go.
- (2) Venue. If there's a venue to perform at, I'm sure there would be more interest.


4) There might be few institutes/dance school/individuals who are working on promotion of this. If you know, can you please share them with us.
- Sorry, no clue.

5) If I am asked, I will say 'yes' but I would like to have your opinion as to whether there should be any effort to even promote these dance forms or talk about them?
- Of course. Why should they take a backseat to bhangra just because the pop culture has not distorted it in the same way it has distorted bhangra. I personally enjoy giddha very much and although it may not live up to the hype of this hybrid bhangra, one could argue that neither does traditional bhangra so if we value giddha and traditional bhangra equally, we should promote them equally. What do you think?

Mom:
To answer your question, I will say 'yes', I did contacted them but rather than discussing it here, I think it will be good if you can contact me at bhangramerijaan- at - yahoo.com.

To everyone else on this page, please keep focus on the discussion as all of us are trying to educate ourselves from other's experience. I am not sure why Duniya is getting that much importance and/or attention here. Our focus should be on Folk Dances of Punjab.

I have one question for all those who love folk dances of Punjab, traditional or hybrid. I have following questions:
1) Why are girls into Bhangra only and not into Giddha, Kikkli or Sammi, especially in North America?

2) Bhangra is traditional folk dance of men and even in India, I don't recall seeing any women's Bhangra team. Please keep in mind that I am NOT saying that women (in India or anywhere else) can't do Bhangra but why do we only have only one form of folk dance promoted in North America?

3) What should be done/should have been done to promote Giddha, Sammi or Kikkli?

4) There might be few institutes/dance school/individuals who are working on promotion of this. If you know, can you please share them with us.

5) If I am asked, I will say 'yes' but I would like to have your opinion as to whether there should be any effort to even promote these dance forms or talk about them?

I think it will be great if all the participants give their opinions/answers about each question using list number or bullet mark. This way it will be easy for all of us to read everyone's opinion and also compare with others.

Waiting for really healthy discussion...while discussing these question, please keep in mind that we still will be discussing traditional/hybrid bhangra as there are people out there who want to share their point of view.

From what I was told and from what I've seen, Internet Service Provider numbers are unique to each account for a specific provider. This is how authorities track Internet fraud and mis-use. From what I've heard on a different discussion page on Punjabi.net the editors have ways of knowing if the same person is posting under different names. This I was told is due to ISP numbers. Maybe the editors can help us out with this issue. Regardless, I apologize if I have offended anyone. I am firm in my beliefs and I will state them openly. This is my right as is yours to share your views. I'm not going to sugar coat my responses just to appease anyone. "Mom" I am not trying to be a know it all. The little I know, I try to share. Why should I be wishy-washy of the things I know about? If you don't like what I say don't read it. Better yet, why don’t you share your 38 years of experience as a Punjaban and your experience with folk dances with us? I, myself am trying to learn what real Bhangra, Jhummar, Malwai Giddha, Pathania, Sammi, and Luddi were. If I don't know what the traditional forms are, what gives me the right to say "ok, I know traditional Bhangra, I should do hip-hop Bhangra now"? As Sir Mix-a-lot has said, "if you don't know where you're from, then you don't know where you are at". Corny rap lyrics? No. There is great significance in what he said. Living in America I think I've gained an appreciation of what history has given us. In America a heap of old bricks where a corn mill once stood a mere hundred years ago is declared a “Historical Site”. These people have a great fondness for their history no matter how recent it may be. They have taken their traditional dances such as square dancing, and line dancing and added modern elements eventually creating the modern dances of today. You don't see them referring to Hip-Hop as square dancing do you? Then why do we call this X-Bhangra or “hybrid Bhangra” Bhangra? I think if we as a generation are well aware of what traditional Bhangra was, then we have every right to modify it to suit our "needs". From what I've seen, the only people that are big advocates of Hybrid Bhangra are the ones that have very little or no knowledge of traditional Bhangra. It is human nature to dislike or hate what one does not know. Before you say anything, I have lived in California my whole life therefore I am very well versed in Hybrid Bhangra. If you know the organizers of Duniya maybe you could suggest them to come on the discussion board and they can present their views themselves. As Tejinder said earlier, I don't think anyone here is taking shots or disrespecting any Bhangra school in particular. It’s just hard to say everyone except A, B, C.

Can hybrid Bhangra exist? Sure it can. Is it wrong? I think that depends on each individual’s perception. In MY opinion I don't agree with it. We as Punjabis screwed up post partition and I think we are screwing up again. THAT’S MY OPINION.

As Tejinder gave the example of Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan Sahib, people appreciated his fusion music and attempts at different singing styles. This was because he didn't pass of his new work as "traditional" or "pure" qawwali. And the main thing about his greatness is that he only started his fusion work when he had mastered the art of qawwali.

Kuldip Manak was touring England and he said when he started to sing a Kali honoring Baba Deep Singh the audience jumped up and started to dance. He was appalled. Was that right, to dance? Did he over react? Should someone tell Manak that it’s ok outside of Punjab to dance to religious bards because this is the age of Hybrid Bhangra?

sorry,
my bad. i made the assumption that TSD was just short for Tejinder Singh. And, as for why i thought your (Tejinder's) mind was already made up was because of the impression i got from your postings. Another assumption i suppose. I guess i shouldn't make all these assumptions.

bhangra kick ass,

I think you are bit mistaken. It was me, Tejinder, who offered you to talk in person and discuss hybrid bhangra and NOT TSD as both of us live in lower mainland. TSD lives in California. I was actually waiting for your email but it seems that for some reason you have already made your decision not meet anyone.

Where did you pick up that my mind was already made up and only thing I hoped to achieve from that meeting was to convince you to change your opinions rather than I having a open mind. I possibly never thought it that way! Or should I say that you are not reading all the posts sincerely.

bhangra kicks ass,

You are rite! Your IP address is the same as those others cuz you're with Shaw cable. My brother lives in New West and he also has the same IP address as do 3 cousins who live in Surrey. So to assume it's the same person cuz of the IP address is wrong.

TSD:
I do not use this as an advertisement for Duniya Dance Academy. The first time I ever appeared on this page was as "mom" Sorry, but maybe you should call Shaw. I too am on Shaw, as is kunwara jatt, and probably the others you accused. Don't be quit to accuse. I am sure we are not all that ignorant where we did not see that the IP ADDRESS is posted beside the name. I live in Surrey BC, and am on Shaw, there are MANY people who have the same IP as me. Tejinder, I would love to stay and discuss bhangra with you! Have you ever tried to contact the girls at Duniya, they also seem knowledgable. And to the person that said Duniya teachs hybrid bhangra only, that is not true. They also teach trad. bhangra...and YES the dance academy is based in Sry.! I hope that answers ever ones questions. AND TSD PLEASE STOP BEING A KNOW IT ALL! Thanks.

I too don’t see anything wrong with having two different forms of Bhangra but where is the second form. I just see the first one only; the so called experimented, remixed and/or hybrid form.

I just want to iterate one of my earlier post. Efforts should be made to gather, learn and teach our dances in the traditional way. Efforts should be made to change the present day Bhangra to a folk dance that expresses the soul of its community. Efforts should be made to show people Bhangra as a “men folk dance” rather than “men dance” with some “folksy elements” in that dance.

Things change then let change be for the good. Change that will take us more near to ourselves as Punjabis. Six genertions of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan were singing qawaali in the traditional way. He experimented qawaali with western instruments and other forms of singing. Quite successful in his efforts, as everyone know, still he kept qawaali in its traditional form as it was earlier and passed it to the next generation. He never called his new experiments as “traditional qawaali”. Same analogy is true for our folk dances. First we should get hold of what is traditional Bhangra? Once we have our baseline then we can experiment with other forms but still have baseline intact with us. This baseline will be passed from one generation to another generation. Let the baseline change with the process of how steps, songs and rhythms become part of tradition but we should not generate our own “tradition” as we have done now.

This post is for all who visit this page and know Gibb. I just want to inform you that Gibb is in India presently. He was enjoying is ride on Bajaj scooter when he was hit by a car. At this point, his in hospital, doing good but has got his right leg injured.

Please take a moment to pray for fast recovery of Gibb. Thanks

tsd,

hummm......nice accusition
and those ip addresses are all different too by the way. i don't know a single dance school, never even attended one. i was just giving my opinion but u don't really seem to have an open mind to other's opinions. if ur mind is already made up on this issue, i don't see a point in having these discussions. i'm simply attending uni and livin in van and been on high school and uni bhangra teams in the past. none right now. earlier u offered me to contact u and discuss hybrid bhangra in person. i didn't pick up on that offer for the same reason b/c it seemed like ur mind was already made up and only thing u hoped to achieve from that was to convince me to change my opinions rather than u having a open mind.
sorry if i offend ya in anyway.

actually now that i notice, mom me and kunwara jatt do have the same ip address, but not some of the others mentioned. i'm not sure how that's possible. maybe everyone living in my area in van who have internet with shaw have same ip address.

Hey MOM,

First, I hope your daughter WAS in bed and not out the window! just joking. Also, is this dance academy based in Surrey? I think I saw them perform at an engagement there last year. It was 5 girls and they were awesome!!! Good choreography and very graceful moves. Just the way good bhangra should be.

By the way, I agree with the person who said bhangra doesn't have to be fast. It should be graceful with carefully orchestrated moves. And only a select number can actually do this cuz I think most seem to think if the song is good, then the routine is good. And that is not true.

"MOM" 3/4/03
AKA "BHANGRA KICKS ASS" 3/1/03
AKA "WEBSITE" 2/26/03
AKA "KUNWARA JATT" 1/30/03
AKA "PUMP UP THE BHANGRA" 1/17/03 ,12/26/02
AKA "SUKH" 12/20/02...

Ever notice that this site posts your ISP number when you post even if you use a different name?

Are your postings a way of self advertisement? Are you one of the organizers of Duniya? On december 20th you ask if anyone has contact info for duniya. On dec 26th, you say the other dance schools are junk and then you give duniya's telephone number.

On January 30th you go on to say that rangeela is the worst school ever. You say you know this from experience. Have you taken classes there? Why? You seem to have your own school.

On 2/26 you give us duniyas website which you say you just found.

On march 1st you give us your opinion that there is nothing wrong with hybrid bhangra. thats your opinion. i respect that. Are you saying this only because your school teaches the hybrid type or do you genuinely feel this way?

You say you found the website on 2/26 but then on 3/4 you are all praises for this academy. You have never come accross a definition of bhangra? Where have you been looking? I was always under the impression that pre-1947 bhangra is the folk dance performed by male jats (punjabi farmers) during the harvest AND other joyous occasions. It might not be as exact as you want (we can have a discussion on this if you want, but you need to pick one name) but i know it mentions nothing of women, hip-hop, hybrid, or choreographed moves. You again put a plug for your website saying to see what else you offer. Woah! Bhangra aeorobics! I can't wait for synchronized giddha.

Ok, i admit that maybe not all dance schools are out there to make money. from all what i've seen in california they are. But i do think there is personal gain as i said before; money or fame.

TSD

I see absolutely nothing wrong with having two different forms of bhangra.

Singh Sahib, I definitely felt your wrath when you were asking same question about “essence” more than one time. Even if you have asked it once, I would have gladly answered it. You raised one of the fundamental questions, “Is Bhangra a slow dance?” I will ask you this question, “What do you consider Bhangra as?” Now before I write further, let me remind you (of course you must be knowing it) that Bhangra that we call traditional now a days not only consist of Bhangra but also other dance forms too. Please don’t ask me what those dance forms are. While dancing Bhangra, if you started one of those other dance forms that is traditionally danced slow, then it “has to be slow”. If it is not slow, you are then killing the dance itself. This is one of the reasons why many of other dance forms are now nearly extinct. Who says that don’t dance Bhangra fast but then who says that you kill other dance forms that you already have nearly slaughter by first imbibing them into Bhangra and now virtually eliminating them too. Why can’t Punjabis advocate this thought “Save our folk dances”. What makes you think that we should kill our other folk dances?

Many a times it has been said on this page that change is law of nature and this change only happens when genius of masses come up with creativity within the dance form itself. Let me ask you one question, “What is creativity?” Do you want creativity within the dance form or do you want creativity in aerobics and acrobatics. To pull you put of circles you are going through, let me tell you that teams dancing traditional dance do show creativity. Let us sit together and watch some performances of both so called creative hybrid Bhangra teams and creative traditional teams. The only condition is that I want to see creative hybrid Bhangra team dancing on Dhol as creative traditional Bhangra Team will be dancing on dhol too and then we will try to figure out who is more creative. You are given a choice to bring any of your creative hybrid Bhangra team performance and I will bring creative Traditional Bhangra teams and then we will compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges...

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There are three essential elements to any dance form – Rhythm, Tempo and Bols. The first thing lacking in Bhangra performance in North America is Dhol. The most essential element of the dance form itself. People dance on recorded music that is put together at certain bpm. If they bring down bpm down, then performance music will be distorted. What they do is they try to dance “traditional” and bringing their creativity at work, they match their steps to same bpm which in turn takes the essence out of the dance. One consistent flat rhythm kills the creativity rather then giving birth to new work. Most of the recorded music is taken from current popular pop Punjabi music and teams in turn try to mimic their actions according to the lyrics rather than focusing on the dance form itself. The dance ends up like an action song then Bhangra itself. If there is a team of both boys and girls dancing, then mimicking lyrics, girls will sometime started doing Giddha but the team will still say that it is Bhangra. Now if that is creativity, then I surrender here only and bow to you. It is really funny that you are asking for some of the basic “essential” aspects of “any” dance and still answering many of them yourself. What do you mean when you say about Rochester that “their choice of movements, fluidity, and grace was so wonderful to watch - it's been a while since I've seen such grace at these competitions.” Why after “a while” did you saw such grace at these competitions? Why not at every competition where creative hybrid teams dance? Aren’t there any creative hybrid teams out there that give you such joy? I have not seen Rochester dancing yet but would like you my question, “What is there lacking in other teams that you found and enjoyed when Rochester was dancing.” “What is fluidity and grace?” I will definitely like to see best hybrid team of your choice who dance Bhangra “fast” and “creatively hybrid” than traditional teams and yet be “fluid” and “graceful”. My dear, if you are looking for gracefulness in aerobics then I am really wasting my time here. As TSD put it, do you want dances to be “wind up like monkey toy” or do you want dances to be fulfilling, rewarding and pleasing. Folk Dances are for people and I don’t expect a 40 year old person doing what you are saying Bhangra, leave alone a retired person over 60. People dance for themselves and not for competitions and this is the spirit that we have to show in our dances.

Now there are two possibilities here: either you have understood some of the basic/essentials of dances or you are still circling faster then ever? As I get time, I will keep on writing on this topic and will definitely wait for many more questions from you. BTW, I am still waiting for the list of all the teams you referred to earlier, who know what traditional Bhangra is but don’t want to do it?

Mom, let me clarify for you that there is no one on this site who doubts about the integrity of what Duniya is doing? Their efforts about social work and building the community are worth praising. But in general most of the dance schools out there only make money. As a general address, the term 'dance school' is used. One can't address anything like "all dance schools make money except for XX, AA, BB etc". It is just as we say that all politicians in India are corrupt but then we also know that there are good one too but you won't say that "all politicians are corrupt except XX, AA, BB".

Please put your doubts at rest that we are not discussing about the purpose and integrity of Duniya. Whether we agree with each other or not, the purpose of this discussion is to exchange ideas, views and discuss about our folk dances and not about Duniya Dance Academy.

I would appreciate if you become regular visitor of this page and also share your views with us. Keep in mind that how ever learned people are on this page, they still are students of folk dances and it might be possible that all of us can even learn from you.

If I wrote anything about Duniya's perception on bhangra that you disagree with, there are many people who may disagee with me but my comments are only be aimed about folk dances and not about their work. It is possible that I have to update myself about the way they look at Bhangra but then there is also a possibility that Duniya might have to change its perception about Bhangra!

Singh,

thanks for the comments. i'll try to clarify myself a little more.

I was saying that these "professional" teams dance slower because that is what traditional bhangra is. Sure they don't dance for 1 hour or more. But who says your have to cram one hour worth of dancing into 10 minutes? But the more imortant thing is that when doing bhangra fast you lose the grace associated with it. I think there is a common misconception (i blame the media and indian movies for this) that Bhangra is ONLY this high energey dance. While part of this may be true the majority of bhangra is slower and more graceful.

I agree there are different styles. But i don't think different styles constitute a different move.

TSD: Im sorry, I just read your post. I just wanted to add something, Duniya Dance Academy is a non profit organization. YOu might think that their organizatoin just says this BUT they charge $25.00 no tax for their classes, and their money is all donated to PICS Youth and is put back in to the renovations of their building/youth centre. I don't think it is fair of you TSD to generalize all "Dance Schools" as trying to make a buck or two. Oh and they don't let their students perform at alcoholic events AND they make sure that their students grasp as much knowledge as possible. Now I must go and make sure my daughter in in bed, good night everyone.

TSD, thanks for the post. But I have a question with respect to your comment in response to the complaint that the professional teams dance so slow, do the same moves, etc. You asked: "Can any of these stunt teams perform their acrobats for one hour let alone for many hours nonstop? I would think that traditional Bhangra has a finite number of “moves”. If these “professional” teams are trying to do traditional Bhangra how do we expect them to have new moves?" - That may be true, but the fact is that at the traditional competitions, i.e. Bhangra Nation, the professionals teams are NOT expected to dance for one hour, or many hours on end doing traditional bhangra. So why shouldn't they explore creativity to the extent that the "hybrid" teams actively try to be creative? And as far as bhangra being a dance with "finite" moves, it's already been admitted that there are different styles of bhangra out there, which would make a "finite number of moves" a contradiction because if there are different styles, there must be different moves => and if there are different moves, why can't there be another new style with more moves...such that there are no longer a "finite" number of moves. I think all this is making me go in circles!

Singh You mentioned the question of basics; in terms of basics we should, as mentioned earlier, relate the intial M of the 3 M's. As for your question as to what I beleive in terms of Basics?? Am education relating to bhangra..... Meaning, History, Symbolism, what is Chaal, tamaal etc.. Once we are able to comprehend and express these interpretations, One has a foundation to understand Bhangra.

Now from this level we can progress to implement Bhangra and how it should be performed by relating to the views expressed earlier by Tejinder.

The discussion relating to Hybrid is a complex issue, that may be accepted or neglected by teams. The question i posed was, can teaching the basics lead to progression of BHangra from hybrid form (seen all over North Amercia) to a more traditional form?

TEJINDER:
I am a mom of a registered student of Duniya Dance Academy, I happened to run across this posting thread b/c I am currently doing some projects for the dance ACADEMY (not school, academy). My daughter attends the academy, and I think the instructor is excellent. I read your post about how you do not agree with their definition of bhangra. I am a 38 year old woman, and I have never come across a concise definition of bhangra, however you seem to know, so please do enlighten all of us with it. Duniya Dance Academy is a "fun" (re: pumpupthebhangra) atmosphere, where children and adults can learn bhangra alike. Who cares how the instructors choose to express themselves be it "1,2,3 LUDDI" or "6,7,8 Jhummar" What I love about the academy, is that my 10 year old can come home and tell me the name of each move, and she is not shy to dance at family events anymore! Perhaps, you should attend an adult class at the academy, before you disagree with the ways they express themselves. It is general knowledge that bhangra comes from punjabi harvest times - I don't think Duniya Dance Academy is too worried about defining bhangra, as much as they are teaching it. I am pretty sure that if I sent my daughter to one of your classes, she would be very bored. Next time, do a little research before you tell people their definition is incorrect. I also notice that somebody posted that by the way you (tejinder) post your view is that only Surrey India Arts is doing bhangra the "right way." I have to admit, their team is a very good team, as I have seen them perfrom a long time ago, BUT I don't think there is a "right" way of doing bhangra. For someone so passionate (as yourself) about the issue of bhangra, you should just be happy that people like the staff at DDA are spreading it widely amongst the younger generation. Thanks for listening....to everyone else - please do have FUN scrolling through Duniya's new web site WWW.DUNIYA.CA - and notice that they offer much more than just bhangra - Enjoy! -

wow. its been a while, its nice to see so many different intelligent topics and conversations. i'll try to give my 2 cents on each topic in a separate post.

as far as dance schools Tejinder. i haven't come accross a single school whose purpose is to teach the youth, or adults for that matter, the meaning and significance behind our rich folk dances and traditions. the sole purpose of these dance schools is for personal gain of the "owners", i.e. MONEY or fame. Thats just my observation but i stick to my opinion.

The punjabi community in general, I think, is ignorant of Bhangra and other folk dances. We have let the media and Mollywood redefine our dances and music. Many people send their kids to these schools thinking that if their children can dance at parties to Malkit Singh or B21 that they will know "bhangra". But then again, until someone who has true folk dance knowledge opens a school parents really don't have any real options.

RE: Bhangra competitions and judging

Ok, i think "bhangra competitons" are becoming this new trend in america as is "bhangra music". In california alone, i think there are 5 or more competitons. Why? I think competitions are a venue for the youth to meet and then have an after party, period. I don't think their purpose is to showcase real bhangra or giddha or to educate the participants or audience. That is what needs to change. Many competitions have guest items by traditional teams, i guess some places a call them "professional".

To my friends on the site who complain that the “professional teams dance so slow, do the same moves, and have NO Creativity”. Who said all Bhangra is supposed to be this wind up like monkey toy, which runs around for hours on end in high speed? Bhangra started as a multi hour-long dance. It started slow and eventually built up to a crescendo. Can any of these stunt teams perform their acrobats for one hour let alone for many hours nonstop? I would think that traditional Bhangra has a finite number of “moves”. If these “professional” teams are trying to do traditional Bhangra how do we expect them to have new moves?

And I think people are missing the definition of traditional Bhangra (pre-1947). Should we just call it old style Bhangra so everyone can understand? Bhangra is a folk dance performed in a circle. As a matter of fact, look at ANY folk dance in the world and it will be performed in a counter clock-wise circle. These lines, and weaves, and squares, etc are added elements for stage. I’m not saying they are right or wrong. I’m just trying to point out the fact that Bhangra is supposed to be performed in a circle. That’s just the way its been for centuries. (by the way, amit i've seen sialkoti with katos a few years ago and it didn't really impress me)

Singh, i agree with you. I don't think the majoirty of problems with these competitons come because of audience support for one team or another (although an inexperienced judge will be affected by this). I think the fault lies with the organizers and their selection of judges.

First off i have seen a few methods of picking judges.

One is to pick a few people of the community that have performed bhangra on stage and have some general knowledge of punjabi culture and punjabi dance. But this method has been used less and less lately. The other thing i have noticed about judges is that the number of judges is ridicuously high. In punjab bhangra comepetitions have 3 judges, here they use from 5 to 9.

The other method of judging is to have each team bring their own judge, What sense does that make if the judge is not qualified? Also who is to say that the person the team brings is even REMOTELY qualified?

I've seen some people get to become judges because they donated money to the comnpetition or put their advertisment in the program. Does that even sound like it makes sense?

Then there is this crazy notion that if someone knows how to sing, or teaches punjabi, or dances well at parties they make good bhangra judges.

But the most absurd judging i've seen had lay paeople with no bhangra knowledge what so ever, these judges were not even punjabi. What does someone versed in Bharatnatyam know about punjabi dance and folk? If it was a "dance" competiton i could maybe see the validity but for a bhangra competition? what crap. I'd rather not post where i saw this, you can e-mail me if you really want to know.

I applaud aulakh for his efforts in changing the face of east coast bhangra competitions with his plan of having a bhangra workshop the day of Bhangra Blow Out to teach the particiapants and anyone interested in learning real bhangra and punjabi folk dances.

these are my views, no appologies.

teginder

Aulakh, thank you for your post. Did you go to Bhangra Fusion this year? Given that no team performed to strict dhol and boliyaan, the closest I saw to authentic bhangra was Rochester. Their choice of movements, fluidity, and grace was so wonderful to watch - it's been a while since I've seen such grace at these competitions which, as you pointed out, are more to do with wildness, with the grace of dancing seldom appreciated. What do you think?

Tejinder, you said with respect to the modern teams that "it is also true that these are the teams that can set standards and a learning education for the young Individuals and if Bhangra is symbolic then shouldn’t we teach them the basics before we progress towards more hybrid Bhangra??" - What are the "basics" you're referring to? Are we talking about movements such as jaffa or tunka? Or are we talking about an attitude that becomes reflected in the spirit of the dance which every dancer should exhibit during the performance? Perhaps a mix of both? What is it that's "missing" apart from variations in form? Obviously you're problem with the issue nowadays must be substantive in nature. What I'm unclear about is what exactly is the "essence" of bhangra that you keep referring to, that's missing in these "hybrid" teams? I don't buy the argument about hybrid bhangra being modified through a few generations ending up with "hybrid*4." It's too vague - I could make the same argument with taking a simple movement, instead of clapping my hands in the front, I clap behind my hands behind me - and say the latter is still doing bhangra, but because it's different, it's bhangra*2. I don't think that's what you're getting at. Please clarify specifically that "essence" and the "basics" so we can understand the difference between "positive" growth/change and "negative" growth/change. I don't want to sound harsh but I think with your profound knowledge, it would be ridiculous for me to sit idle and pretend I understand what you're talking about and nod my head ignorantly. I honestly don't know the answers to these questions and that's why I ask them of you. It's very clear your expertise and knowledge are based on years of experience but I think communication is essential. Forgive me if I've come across a little harsh in my past post.

regards
Singh

One more thing - Aulakh - you mentioned that "the majority of competitions do not have an educated audience, with the majority of audiences being non-punjabi." That may be true but the fact is that it's not the audience that does the judging at the competition. It has nothing to do with a punjabi or non-punjabi majority in the crowd. I don't think teams have won bhangra competitions based on audience responses alone. It may be a factor, but there are more definite reasons why a team wins. The bigger question is whether the reason is legitimate in serving the purposes of the competition. I will honestly say this is not a "non-punjabi" problem although I'm always hearing from my brothers and sisters how we need to educate people more. I have found non-punjabi just as eager if not more so, in trying to learn about this folk dance and that the majority of teams out there are definitely run by punjabis. So our work is cut out for us in our own community and it is a mistake to think it's a simple matter of educating the people outside our community because those "outsiders" don't understand real bhangra. Slow dances are meant to be slow but is bhangra a slow dance? It can be, but it is not definitely always the case. Bhangra can become very fast at times. So we have to be clear on what are is the "essence" that Tejinder referred to earlier of the dance. That's why I asked him in my previous post to specifically define that "essence."
regards
Singh

Sorry Tejinder - I reread the post and noticed it was Ranvir who I quoted. You may feel that there is absolutely no place for Hybrid bhangra in the future. If that's the case, I guess my question is more directed at Ranvir.

Finally some decent talk on this forum! Singh, I think Tejinder already asked you, but which teams are you referring to in the states that know traditional style but don't want to do it? The reason is because I have been involved in the recent US bhangra movement for the past 4-5 years now, and know of VERY few teams that know traditional style or anything of real bhangra. I think that the main reason why people dont perform traditional bhangra is 1)they dont know it, 2)they dont think a traditional dance will be able to win a competition,3) there arent enough skilled dancers on the team able to perform traditional dance. From my experience, one reason why 'hype' bhangra is performed is because it is MUCH easier to learn, choreograph, and teach. Unskilled dancers can jump around with energy, and their lack of skill is easily masked by the hype. HOwever, the grace and style required by many traditional dances is much harder to master and requires a much higher degree of dancing skill. I know that when choreographing for my team in the past, it was always much harder to teach the slower dances like jhummar than anything else, because it requires more skill than the 'jumping jacks' style of other teams. As far as creativity goes, to the untrained eye, traditional dances may seem uncreative. But when you know dances well, you easily see when teams add creativity. For example, at Bhangra Nation, i remember one team doing sialkoti bhangra with katos. for someone who doesn't know, it would look like every other team, but it was a creative addition to sialkoti (someone please correct me if i am wrong). whether that is too modern or not is a matter of personal opinion. Like Tejinder said, a slow dance is MEANT to be slow. When you make it 'faster, stronger', you are eliminating many of the subtle nuances required to do the dance. Again, this is good for unskilled dancers, because it makes it easier to perform. (continued in next post..)

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Also, the majority of competitions do not have an educated audience, with the majority of audiences being non-punjabi. Because of this, traditional dances do not get crowd reaction, because the crowd does not know that these teams are dancing correctly. Obviously, stunts and 10-man pyramids will be more entertaining to watch than a precisely performed, slower dance to an audience without any knowledge. You cannot go to a ballet and appreciate the skill of the dancers until u first learn the complexity of the dance and just how hard it is to perform. The problem with competitions and teams in the US and Canada nowadays is that no one takes the time to try to educate themselves so that they can appreciate our folk dance. They are too involved in trying to think of flashy dances that will get the crowd hype and win a competition for them. And this is where western, hype bhangra comes from. These competitions started and became popular. Everyone wanted to compete, but didn't know about bhangra...so they took the little they know, combined with what they do know, hip-hop or other western styles of dance, and out comes a distorted version of bhangra. over the past 10 years, as these competitions became more and more popular, these 'hybrids' were passed off as bhangra, thus perpetuating the misinterpretation. So in essence, bhangra has been unnaturally changed as a result of lack of knowledge and competitive necessity. Yes things must change, but if these changes are not natural, then something is wrong. Bhangra is something that is part of our heritage..something we should have pride in and a gift that we should pass down to the next generations. All of us should be trying to preserve what is already on the verge of distinction, rather than adulterating it with outside influences. You ask why changes havent been made by promoting traditional bhangra? It is because there are a handful of people in all of N America actually taking initiative to make a change, and most of the people they are trying to teach would rather do hip-hop bhangra than learn their roots. So basically, I am asking that we all have pride in who we are, and try to appreciate the treasures that have been passed down to us.
And of course, I am speaking out of my experiences, so if you feel that I am wrong, please keep in mind that it is my personal opinions. Also, I have no intention of offending anyone, so I am sorry if I have done so.

This is a response to Sukhi:

I’m glad to see that Cornell performed successfully and as Tejinder mentioned even though they were non-Punjabi’s they did an incredible performance, so the discussion is not to ridicule any team but to support each other and creating a beeter understanding. I believe if every University had a professional dhol player along with an instructor there would be no hesitation in teams performing tradition Bhangra than Hybrid.

The topics posed by Tejinder Singh, Amit and Gabba through out this page have consistently mentioned TRADRITIONAL Bhangra and at the same time a number of individuals have mentioned HYBRID Bhangra. Over the past several years I have observed that from 1996 a gymnastic form of Bhangra was performed and this was based on mere education and Bhangra knowledge. Now in 2003 even though hybrid Bhangra exists, teams have developed a sense of traditional Bhangra synchronized with music relative to 1996.

Also from this page no team has been neglected, criticized, degrade or been ridiculed by there performance, but to create an understanding of Bhangra. As the initial concern posed by Sukhi; Bhangra is a symbolic dance that portrays creativity and realism. Cornell might have performed with a gudah directed by a Mohr and a Mohr playing a dhol. If we discuss the sense of imagination, I must admit this is quite imaginative, but in terms of realism is there such a Mohr that guides a Gudha or a Mohr that plays a Dhol??

These teams have a well established record and reputation where young individuals from Toronto have noticed and thrived on there success and considered the team as a mentor, But it is also true that these are the teams that can set standards and a learning education for the young Individuals and if Bhangra is symbolic then shouldn’t we teach them the basics before we progress towards more hybrid Bhangra??

As Tejinder mentioned the 3 M’s I agree they are difficult to implement; but I do congratulate Tejinder on the effort, in the event if everyone agrees in implementing the 3M’s we all have a foundation to work or aim for, with the progression of the 3M’s with minor changes this could be a basis to understanding Bhangra?

First of all I am really happy to see that this discussion board has came out of slumber and we have some real good discussion started. There have been two different posting but pointing to one question only. Some of the things pointed out have very valid reasoning. But before I dive deep into answering those reasoning, let me point out one thing about three “M”. It is your good opinion not to agree with me but even your disagreement, you have agreed with me through one of the “M” – Medium. You are using “M”: Medium to communicate your views about our folk dances and that was my point. We should be using all possible medium to communicate about our folk dances. It was “M”: Medium that made Gibb introduced to us and his work he has done about Dhol. My friend all of us are actively or passively consuming these three “M” in one way or another. I am stressing the point that we should effectively use them to project what we want people to learn.

From learning, I thinks that if “audience erupted in applause” on seeing crazy stunts of Cornell University students then there is a dire need to teach masses. This is one of the tragedies of folk dances of Punjab. People are far far away from understanding, dancing or even remembering our folk dances. This might be the reason why Sonja Walter (Friday, October 12, 2001) renamed her thesis on Bhangra as “"mens dance" instead of "a mens folk dance".” Everything changes over a period of time but that doesn’t mean that in that change it looses its essence. It seizes to exist as what archetypically it is. After 1947, Bhangra slowly started loosing it’s original form with imbibement of folksy elements of other folk dances. Added to this, we even lost our other folk dances too. Then to show our ‘creativity’ we changed it a hell lot and by 1980s it lost most of its essence as folk dance. It was then that people started making an effort that change should not take away the essence of our dances. Now here in North America that distorted form of Bhangra was taken and all the energetic creativity was applied to it. The result is what you see now a days...

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I talked with students of Cornell University at Bhangra Nation this year. I asked them who helped them in learning Bhangra. Even before that, not to offend anyone of them, most of them were not Punjabis and they know only that much about Punjab and Bhangra as they were told from some sources of there (authentic or not?? I don’t know). Anyway, on my asking this question they told the person who helped them. I asked them again, where he learned from. He was on last year team and that team learned from someone who was on last to last year’s team and he in turned learned from someone from last to last to last year’s team and he in tuned learned from India. What the first person learned from India must have been that 80s Bhangra I was talking about earlier. Now you take that Bhangra, show your creativity and come up with first hybrid prototype. First hybrid was then taken and again creativity was applied to come up with second hybrid and hence forth, we end up with hybrid*4 Bhangra performance. Now it is not there fault that they are doing like this. It is people like us you should have helped them in understanding the dance form. But how could they know whether we even exist or not. Again “M” comes in place: “medium” & “media”.

I had a very small workshop with them after the competition this year. Again one of the “M” comes handy. They were very excited about it. Their first question was what is Luddi? I told them a bit about it and I am really looking forward to meet them again sometime to show/tell what our dances are?

The moves that are slow should be danced slowly because they were meant to be slow. The moves that are energetic should be danced with energy because they were meant to be energetic. Now “creativity” doesn’t mean that you should kill the essence of the dance form. Folk dances are not governed by strict rules as classical dances are but this in turn doesn’t give us freedom to change the essence of dance itself. You are most welcome to change the dance form and show your creativity but then don’t call it Bhangra…probably rename it as Shangra but not Bhangra. If lot of team captains who do this “modern Bhangra” have had their efforts much more appreciated by their communities then I think the time has come that they should try to learn more about their dance so that they can be those “role models” that can in turn tell their communities that we have lost so far, where we are, what are the avenues of changing current trends, what will the benefit of it and last but not the least make Bhangra men’s folk dance not men’s dance.

Singh, do email me that list of all the teams that you know who are aware of the authentic style but don't want to do it. I definitely want to contact them to understand what is authentic style according to them and the most important question, “Why” they don’t want to show people how to dance Bhangra? My mailing address is bhangramerijaan- at - yahoo.com

Also please note that in using pronoun "you" I am not referring to anyone specific on this forum. Purpose on this page is to discuss and not to offend.

I absoletely agree with singh. So called Hybrid bhangra seems to be more applealing these days and frankly i see nothing wrong with that. Yes, it may have been mixed with some western dances but on large it is still the traditional bhangra just modified on its own not remixed with western dance. Once again i'd say "change does not necessarily mean it's a negative change or we're losing something".

Tejinder,
Why doesn't your team go compete in the US so 'Singh' can understand what you're talking about? Maybe if he sees this authentic style, he will appreciate it better so they can encourage it down there.

Jatti

I respectfully disagree with Tejinder's last posting for a few reasons: (1) Regarding the "role models" you alluded to: I live in the US and I have been watching the bhangra teams here over a number of years at the major competitions and the trend of teams is certainly NOT caught up in the music of Jasbir Jassi or Daler Mehndi. That may have been the case 5 years ago when Daler was more popular but his music is never seen in bhangra competitions down here anymore.
(2) Regarding your 3 M's of Medium, Methodology, and Media: In theory, this is nice. In reality, it's probably not practical. People won't just participate because it's a good idea. People are led by example.
Just talking about it for the last 3 years doesn't mean anything. I have friends how have been doing this so called 'modern bhangra' but what does that mean? I'll tell you - they include traditional elements with dhol and all your props, and boliyaan, etc... but they also refine some of the slower moves, making them at times faster, stronger - they make creative formations, much more creative than the same lines or circles I see over and over again of these 'authentic' teams. The list goes on and on in what they do while they prepare for these competitions and we're not talking about 1 team, but many teams. While this board likes to encourage traditional dance, the only team I see reference to on here that apparently does it 'authentically' is the Surrey India Arts Club. If that's the case, I guess the hybrid form is more appealing and I guess the bottomline is: Why? Instead of looking forward in how to teach the authentic form, I suggest you first understand the motivation behind this so called 'hybrid' form before you ASSUME that people are doing it ignorantly. Many of the teams down here are aware of the authentic sytle but don't want to do it. I guess that raises another question: Why?


Singh

Answering Ranvir's question about the variations in stunts (i.e. Gaadha with a mor, mor with a dhol, etc...)
All I know is that when Cornell performed their crazy stunts at Bhangra Nation, the entire audience erupted in applause. Why don't we ask the audience why they like it so much and if they care whether it "exists" in bhangra? The complaint I heard from participants in the so-called 'modern' bhangra you talk about is that the professional teams dance so slow, do the same moves, and have NO Creativity. Maybe the professional teams need to try to be more creative in how they preserve the traditional bhangra. I can't believe the lack of support for those dancers on this site. So much talk, but how many lives/teams have you changed in your effort to preserve this traditional art form? I can tell you that a lot of team captains who do this modern bhangra have had their efforts much more appreciated by their communities, who could care less about being criticized by people who don't care about them enough to set an example.

sukhi

Again a posting about a dance school has come up. Earlier too, I asked about the difference between a good dance school and bad dance school is. To this, PumpUpTheBhangra (Friday, January 17, 2003) replied that good dance school is esp. where kids can go have fun and learn at the same time, so that they are interested and want to go back.

Also we have a question from Ranvir Singh (Monday, February 24, 2003) how do we create a bigger awareness of Traditional Bhangra and get teams from universities ton perform traditional Bhangra with the understanding of Jhummir, chaal, sami etc. ???

Both the things somehow meet each other at one point of time. Kids are the one who go, learn and dance. Kids of today will be university students of tomorrow. They are really are our valuable resources to give traditional folk dances of Punjab the position they deserve. It is here that dance schools play very important role. Not to criticize Duniya Dance School but just for argument sake, I visited their website (http://www.duniya.ca/id23.htm) to know what they think about Bhangra as a folk dance and here is their definition:

“Is what you'll be hearing as you enter a high energy Bhangra class at Duniya Dance Academy. Bhangra is one of the most popular traditional dances. Typically, Bhangra is a male dominated folk dance portraying farmers, but as the years progress, more and more woman are changing that stereotype. Inspite of the fact that Bhangra still remains undefined, the form still lures in young and old alike.”

If this is the message they are sending out then for some very compelling reasons, I really don’t agree with it. I agree with PumpUpTheBhangra that “good dance school is especially where kids can go have fun and learn” but my question will be what should they learn. Anyone who is introduced to the dance-form and anyone who already is dancing the dance-form, there should definitely be some check as to what are they learning and/or dancing....[continued]

I can't post message more than 4K, hence there will be a second post continued with this message.

[Continue from pervious post]

...To answer Ranvir's question, there are three “M” that will help us in helping people understand what Bhangra and other folk dances are. First M is Medium: This M brings in all the known mediums that we use to teach/learn/educate ourselves and people about different Folk Dances of Punjab. It can be through some books, through some magazines specific to Folk Dances, through some websites, through some personal interactions, through some dance schools, through some workshops. The world is wide-open for us to choose what mediums we can use. Second M is Methodology: Once the medium is selected, the next one that will play an important part is methodology. In dance school there will be a different methodology, different for website, different for any other the selected medium. As PumpUpTheBhangra said, methodology should be such that people learning should “have fun and learn at the same time, so that they are interested and want to go back”. The third M is Media: there should be two-folded approach in this M. People just can’t know what is going out there. We should effectively use media to tell them about the resources where they should go. Just as someone posted here that there is dance school Duniya. Now if it is not posted, many out there won’t even know about it. We should also make an effort that media should not say or show what is actually not there…Aankhi Jatt (Sunday, April 2, 2000) “Daler Mahendi is the Official king of Bhangra”. I have known singer Jasbir Jassi (Kuri Gujrat Di) for quite some time now and on his trip to Vancouver, I asked him why people call him “Bhangra King” too. I told me that he has no idea. He doesn’t know Bhangra and he told me that he asked Daler Mahendi too whether he knows Bhangra and answer was NO. It is all media projected. People like them are looked upon at as “Role Models”. There should be an effort made in to educate people about this too.

I just put down what was coming to my mind. Any ideas, suggestions, comments are most welcomed. You can also email me at bhangramerijaan- at - yahoo.com

PUNJABI LYRICS R NEEDED ASAP EMAIL ME.....

For those of you who want to know about a cool dance school, I found a web site
www.duniya.ca

mei rundhi tu rundha, mei rundhi tu rundha,
jineh vudeh mere MUMMEH, unha budda thera dundha!

Hee Hee Boli#1

Dhaave Dhaave Dhaave.
Kuri niri full wargi, munda dud-jalebi khaave.

Hee Hee!!!!

I totally agree with a lita a bit of desi and others who have viewed their opinions on this page, it seems like most teams have neglected the truth about the meaning of Bhangra and converted to so called “Modern Bhangra”, if there is such a classification then where does Traditional Bhangra fall??

It is also true that there are a lack of individuals in the Western world that can coach, teach instruct and create awareness of Traditional Bhangra, but there are still a number of resources available to teach about the history behind Bhangra.

By reading this page once can go from Top to Bottom and understand the role and meaning of Bhangra it is sad to say that most individuals still reading on Bhangra still neglect the traditional Bhangra and go beyond the scope of Bhangra i.e., a gudha with a mor??? A Mor with a Dhol…… this might be imaginative but does this really exist in Bhangra??

The question I pose is how do we create a bigger awareness of Traditional Bhangra and get teams from universities ton perform traditional Bhangra with the understanding of Jhummir, chaal, sami etc. ???