Chimta,

I like your explanation in referencing gurubani. Especially if you consider yourself Sikh, I mean, you are pretty much saying you believe in gurubani at that point...so if you got questions...first check out what gurubani says on the topic. I have never read the whole gurubani, but if there is nothing in there about eating meat or not eating, I think that's saying it all right there.

And you are right about B12 deficiency...B12 is not found in any vegetables. Many vegetarians got B12 through time because they were not strict vegetarian in terms of, at times they did ingest animal products. But now with the advent of veganism being more popular, vegans are told about the need to get B12 supplements.

I recently got a gurubani whole in translation along with the gurumuhki, I recommend this for anyone.

Chardi kala and lots of love,

Khalsa Soulja,

You need to grow up and read Bani. Meat eating is not against Sikhism. As Guru Nanak Dev Ji said "fools wrangle over flesh"! Try reading the SGGS Ji instead of making wild statements about something you obviously have not read or have no knowledge about!

KDS, I think Sufism and Islam diverge on certain issues.

Khalsa Soulja,

What a curious little boy you are!

You refer to me as a Tit, is that tit as in breast that provides nourishement ot tit as in bird that is free to fly?

In anycase, no amount of insults from you will be able to hide your ignorance, and the fact you know nothing about the Sikh Scriptures or Sikh History!

Khalsa Soulja,

Satnam Waheguru

My question is for u and all proponents of religious vegitarianism.

Not eating meat is a Hindhu beleif in non-violence against all animals including humans. This Brahmin belief has influenced Sikhi, Buddism and Jainism. However 3 of the greatest religions of god (the semetic religions of Judiaism, Christianity and Islam) have no such beliefs. Their followers eat meat. The Bible confirms that Satguru Jesus helped his diciples fish to feed his sangat.

My question is; Do you think that in over 4000 years of the semitic religions, starting from Prophet Guru Abraham untill now, that none of them ever saw God and went to heaven??


Satnam

In these days, most of people who have awareness about cholesterol/Fat which is bad for your heart are ready to start eating more vegetarian stuff and less then dairy and animal products. It is not because of any afraid of any sin or violence, it is just because they are not doing any physical work or exercise how much you should be. If you don't eat any kind of meat because of sin or bad effect on your body and mind, Doctor says that you will get B12 deficiency in your body. To get B12, you need shots and I don't know what is the procedure to produce these kinds of shots or you have to drink milk or eat yogurt. When you drink milk or eat yogurt, you don't think about bacteria's. You can say that is what I need, otherwise I will die. This is my basic need.


There are 4-5 shabads may be more in GGS which describe clear cut about not use alcohol. All, especially amridhari sikh are agreeing on that except guess less than 1% still drinking. Whole sikh community as know drinking alcohol is prohibited in Sikhism, but they are drinking too much as you compared with other communities. I don't know may be they have more stress or problems or fashion or feel proud of it. I know some people saying, actually everyone is drinking as you see in medicine, but this thing less amount in medicine give you life. This controllable. It does not affect your body parts and mind. As doctor saying, alcohol have a side effects on your body like stomach ulcer, liver damage, kidney damage and brain cell die and it depends how much you use it.

There is no even single one shabad in GGS which describe about eating or not eating meat. It is different thing if you taking different meaning of some shabads and lines. Keep long hair, some time you look like good person but It is not necessary you are a good man. Some time it is a just show up not reality. It is good thing to show when you are really converted to be a great person otherwise It is a Bhaik which is not good and cheating others.

HAHAHAHA KDS

me get my theories right????

if u think ur allowed 2 eat meat in sikhi u r a complete and utter tit.

the sgpc allows u to eat meat yeh - but they also discriminate against women in harmandir sahib and half of them are in bed with the indian govt.

NO ONE knows exactly what bhagat kabir was

but does that matter?

the bottom line is, he told u subtly to keep long hair, and blatantly not to eat meat.

regardless of what he was it doesnt matter - he was a holy man and his words of advice were true. who gives a sh*t whether he was hindu or muslim.

SSA to All,

As you go through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Darpan ( Tika by Prof Sahib Singh Ji ), He explained about lot of thing about Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji through Kabir Sahib's own Shabads as follows.

1. Bhagat Kabir Sahib's bani's theme is exactly same as whole Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
2. His family's profession was beaver as Kabir Sahib accepted in few shabads himself.
3. He born in Hindu family, lived in Bnarus where some peoples were converted to Muslim, but Kabir Sahib not converted to Muslim as some Shabads explained.
4. He had a long Hair as his few Shabads tell us. ( I think It is natural when someone lightened does not matter He/She is from Hindu community, or Muslim community or Sikh or Christ community, It doest not matter what profession like police, army, student or janitor They love to keep hair as acceptance of God's will.)
5. He ate meat or not, but He is not against to eat meat, how Prof Sahib Singh Ji explained the Shabads.

It is just information how Prof Sahib explains, believe or not It is personnel choice.
SSA again.

Ladies and Gentle men,

God is great,

About satguru Baghat Kabir ji,

Yes he was a real Muslim "one who is submitted to God," how ever he was not a muslim by the standards of the modern faith of Islam, Or Mohammedanism. The fact is that Baghat Kabir was a Muslim orphan raised by hindhu parents. He also had a guru like we have Nanaks 11 forms. His Guru was Satguru Ramanand whos bani can be found in the GGS. Followers of Mohammed would find that blasphemous. Following a enlightend mans instuctions instead of following the holy Q'aran??!!!.

Did kabir cut his Hair? Perhaps at somepoint in his life he would have. How ever it is doubtfull he would has cut his hair after attaining enlightenment. People only cut thier hair to please their own ego and other peoples egos. How ever enlightend souls would have no reason in serving God to cut their hair. As far as eating meat. One can not say he did or didn't, but there is a religion called "Kabir panthi" who are the followers of kabir who insist on being vegitarians. I'm sure Guru Kabir ate what ever his lord presented for him.

Praise the formless lord!!

Kabir was a Julaha or a Muslim Chamar. He more than likely had cut hair and ate meat.

KDS,

Yes sir, I agreed with you more than 100%. You got my point. I don't have any answer for your both question.

Khalsa Soulja,

Kabir was a practicing Muslim - FACT!

Practising Muslims eat Halal Meat - it is considered wrong in Islam to be a vegetarian.

Kabir, most likely had cut hair, being a Muslim!

Stop talking bravado, and get with the facts!

The SGPC rehits do NOT bar meat eating, but eating of Halal and Kosher meat!

Get you facts right Khalsa Soulja! and read some history, instead of believing half baked theories from la-la land!

kabir was a sufi, yes.

people said he had cut hair. in reality he didnt.

give me some historical evidence showing me that bhagat kabir ate meat.

go to panthkhalsa there is a good piece on meat eating.

all rehits bar SGPC know meat eating is wrong.

Moferia,

How can you say those not eating are on the safe side?

Why not those eating meat are on the safe side?

This is the problem with people concerened about diet rather than spirituality. So long as you eat good food (both vegetarian and non), keep your body and mind active, You cannot go wrong!

You know what
Those who are not eating, they are on safe side you know how
Suppose some one proved and both side are agree on that 100%.
If it is proved that there is no restriction to eat than vegetarian going to start eat.
If it is proved that it is restriction to eat than it will punch what I did.

Until now, we are not agreeing with each other, there is no hope in future too. Try to leave this endless topic. We have lot of other things on which we should concentrate and improved attitude with Gurbani to become a real Khalsa or great man.

Khalsa Soulja,

Did you know that Kabir was a Muslim and a Weaver by "jaat". He actually ate meat himself!

So what do you say about that?

Do we believe in
1 Dharmraj
2 Jumdoot
3 Swurg
4 nurk
I don't think so
I think, if rememrence of GOD is not in my mind, this is a separation is like that, I am living in nurk.
If I have a food to maintain my body for simran that is very very refined thing.

"kabeer those who consume the forbidden foods of marajuiana, fish and wine, no matter what fasts or rituals they follow, they will all go to hell" - guru granth sahib

tell me whats so hard about that.

Sat Sri Akal to All

We all agree, Guru Granth Sahib Ji perfect and Great.
But we have different so many explanation of some shabads or lines which confuse all of us.

Is there any hard and fast logic acceptable rules or principles in sikhism, give the real meaning of whole shabad or sikhism is a blindly faith.

SSA again

BELOW FROM ANOTHER DISCUSSION

hi Randip,

Sorry to interject, but are you aware that humans are Omnivores, not Herbivores, or Carnivores. So our ideal diet consists of meat and
vegetables. If we were herbivores we would have the Appendix the size of a Rabbits and as many stomachs as a cow!

So whether it is just or not, God has made us to eat vegetables and meat. Just look at your Teeth. Some are for eating meat, others are for
vegetables. So Scientifically, meat eating is not prohibited. Since the Guru's also believed in science and logic, they too would hold with your
logic.

Therefore, I would say Randip, that it is a "just" act to kill an animal for food. In the same way it is just to kill and living organism like a plant for
food.

Eating meat or not eating meat is a personal choice, nothing to do with religion.

Sonyo pyar naal raha karo tusi - Hor Koi navi taazi gall likho?

randip singh (62.31.144.1) ji ne likhya Monday, January 13, 2003 - 02:41 pm nu punjabi.net te


PCJ,

Are you saying wars are you saying all wars are not just, or are you saying that most wars are not just?


Defenceless Animal..what about killing a defenceless plant? It to is a living breathing organism, how can you justify killing plant life, simply because
you do not recognise it as a life form like an animal.

And before you say it, various experiments have been done on plants where stems etc are removed, and electrical activity increases, which is the
equiviant of what we call pain!

So what will you eat now under your moral code?

Hello Ji, In whole world, Farmers ploughing their land to make soft and ready for growing some grains and other things. They are keeping some portion for their family members and sell extra one and make a profit out of it. When they plough the land, there so many insects in land going to be cut and die. They don't think about any kind of violence for these alive insects/worms. If they stop to do their job, then we all have to go in jungle and eat fruit and sitting on trees.

I have grown up in Bhatinda Panjab area. Farmers grow cotton plants over there. What happen, Nature develops some kind of insects. These insects going to eat plant leaves. Without thinking about anything, they spray the chemical on these plants. They save life of thousand plants for their few family members and killing millions of insects. May be it is required for those who have few acres of land What about who have hundreds acres of land and make to much profit. Chuga ji phir mila ge.

u really dont understand anything about sikhi do u.

the point i was making was, guru nanak was not saying its ok to eat meat, he was saying MEAT IS NOT DIRTY like all the hindus say, but if meat is dirty then EVERYTHING is dirty....this is why he says "how can we tell the difference between meat and vegetable (in terms of clenliness) later on he says "WHAT LEADS TO SIN?" he is saying, dont blindly judge things on what is clean becaues everything u eat causes adverse effects in ur body, check out a macrobiotic book and u will see everything has a subtle effect on ur behaviour.

stupid comment of the day "why eat then?" because then u will die. all food is dirty compared to naam u gotta eat it 2 survive. although a handful of extremely talented gurmukhs that no one knows and no one believes do not need to eat at all due to the naam powers they have obtained.

also a number of ur sentences werent coherant. try n make sense when u write.

good point amea, however it apears people here don't know the value of ALL life...only of the value of the life of large animals. No hesitation in KILLING microbes and in KILLING things like flies and insects or even plants. I bet many of these vegitarian people have killed a fly even though it was not bothering them. Maybe it was sitting on the wall in their house and the kill it with out a thought of its life.

Question- which life is expendable and which is not??

If all food are dirty then why we eat it.

If you eat more than what you need than your body and mind in trouble.

Namm is for your spritulity not for body. Yes when you have a Namm, then your action going to be good like you don't eat more than how much you need.

If you have a virus, you are taking anti botic to kill all so many unseen bad bacteria to saving your single life.

most people here have a very shallow view of sikhism and know very little.

the "all foods except naam create trouble in the body" - if u actually understood what it meant in gurbani, it means that no food is pure, and everything is dirty apart from naam. this is ridiculing the hindu groups who wont eat yoghurt due to bacteria, wont eat food where the shadow of an untouchable has been on it, etc.

the lengthy passage written by guru nanak about meant is completely taken out of context ALWAYS. again he is addressing the brahmins who follow mindless rituals. they treat flesh as dirty, but guruji says we were conceived in our mothers womb, which is flesh, how can this be dirty.

sikhs dont eat meat. they dont eat it, not because its dirty or has bacteria in it, but because it is extremely bad karma and incredibly selfish to take one life to keep your own. when u are gurmukh u have no regard for ur own life - do u think guruji would want u to keep this life by continually murdering others?

situations where guruji hunted was to kill animals terrorising hte villagers etc - he was SAVING lives. he also released a number of previous souls of past humans in guru nanaks time from reincarnation into mukti.

most meat eating gurmukhs stop because they realise their spirituality is hindered. so if u eat meat, and ur a gurmukh by all means speak up, but if ur not shut up.

We all eater and non eater stand at the same level. We are not doing any progress (including me) in improved ourself, but we are claiming it. It is very very easy to quit alcohol and meat because of some reasons, but about other things in your mind which you are not showing outside to anyone.

Who want to eat according their understanding, let them leave free to eat, He/She practicing Gurbani, One day come to know, what is right and wrong.

Who does not eat, let them leave free to beat, He/She is practicing Gurbani, One day come to know, What is right and wrong.

I don't know what is rigt and wrong , leave it on GOD's blessing.

Be a vegetarian.

I dont know much abt being vegetarian, but I dont understand why the sikhs dont admit tht a true sikh should be a vegetarian. To eat meat is like u are killing a life and puting in ur stomach.

Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey. Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey

Remember God is everywhere and in everything and infact is everything.

So,

Is the evil in meat or in the mind?

Guru Hargobind Ji Was the 6th Guru. We are not allowed to eat meat

Sikhs do not believe in IDOL worship. Sikhism seems to be a simple but intellectually very powerful religion.

Sikhism is contemporary.
Like its followers Sikhism is extremely DYNAMIC. You can find Sikhs all over the world including CHINA where they speak Mandrin -chinese language.Like the Sikh GURUs the Sikhs are always on the move.

This religion is naturally evolving.
Sikhs can make extreme SACRIFICES for their religion.

In Sikhism you don't have forced conversion.One Value of the Sikhs is to move forward.Learn and prosper. Assist the weak, donate from your prosperity, feed all in the Gurudawaras, who are equal in the mind of the unseen, the unknown.

Sikhs like to take risks, the reason for their Prosperity.

Like its followers,Sikhism is extremely Adaptable. Sikhs Respect all religions. They are not afraid to visit other religious temples/mosques/churches/....

Sikhism makes its followers a Proud Race.

nihang meat eater ji

tusi main kaafi samajhdaar bande lagde ho..
tuhadi gal sun ke main tuhade warga ek hor sajjan yaad aa gya,,, oh Sirsa(haryana, india) which kise sant nu badda manda si te oh sant v apne aap nu guru barabar manda si...main usnu keha ki kyon bhai..tu guru granth sahib nu shad ke kyon pakhandiann de magar pya hai....oh mainu kehenda bhai guru granth sahib which taan aap likhya hai

" sant sajjan bhai sarse pure gur te janni"

baki rahi tuhadi gal.. bani which taan ek thaan te likhya hai...""Ved kateb kahho matt jhuthhe juthha jo na vicharai II
Jau sab mein ek khudae keht ho tau kion murgi marai II """

hun tusi kaho ek sanu taan murgi marran nu manna kitta baki sab kush khaa sakde haan/

O bhai bani da arth samjhan de koshish karo..baki tusi taan kafi gyani bande lagde ho tuhanu samjaan de koi lode nai

Mittar


You quoted this bani from the holy Guru,

"O baba, ALL other food (except naam) create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil."P196

Perhaps Sikhs should give up all food then! Starving physically, becomeing weak while strengthening the soul with simran????(sarcasm)

This puts your Saag and Maki di roti in the same boat as Meat.

Ved kateb kahho matt jhuthhe juthha jo na vicharai II

Jau sab mein ek khudae keht ho tau kion murgi marai II

hi all
Mittar is backk,
Thx div malik and rutgers for ur comments.

haanji hipoper ji lagdaa tuhanu aje v channan nahi hoya...

U mean that kutha meat is not allowed but other everything else is allowed,Please DO read the following and you will be 100% sure that eating meat in Sikhism is not allowed. It is a bit long, but you will be enlightended!

______________________________________________________

KUTTHA AND SIKHISM
The controversy in the Khalsa Panth over being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian arose due to the difference in the interpretation of the word Kuthha - one of the four primary taboos or Cardinal Sins for the Sikhs. Before going into the depth of what "Kuthha' really means, it is imperative to consider the real importance of these taboos in Sikhism. It is an undisputed fact that any Sikh who commits any one of these four taboos becomes an apostate. That means he is no longer a Sikh, i.e., he is automatically de-linked and ex-communicated from the Khalsa Brotherhood, even though he may be considered a Sikh by society. As a natural corollary, he loses the Grace of the Satguru without which no progress can be made in achieving the Bliss of Naam-Simran. The four great taboos prescribed for the Sikhs are, thus, of fundamental importance.
Being of such fundamental importance, the four taboos cannot, obviously, be based upon any temporary contingency of the prevailing circumstances. They must have their own solid basis and foundation, and must be conducive to spiritual upliftment through Naam-Simran, which occupies the pivotal position in the whole edifice of Sikhism. Otherwise, they will lose their applicability in the changed circumstances, especially when their role in the spiritual progress is doubtful or even negative. It is explicit in Gurbani that the principles of Gurmat are unchangeable and of permanent standing:

"Gurmatat Mat Achal Hai Chalaey Na Sakey Koey" (pg. 548)
[The Instruction of the Guru is Unshakable. None can change it.]

Obviously, therefore, these four basic taboos formulated by the Tenth Guru must have their own solid base which would stand the stress of all times.

The word Kuthha is generally (or erronously) taken to mean HaIaaI meat i.e. "Meat obtained by the Muslim method of slaying the animal, slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal, while reciting religious formulae, the main object of slaughtering in this manner being a sacrifice to God to expiate the sins of the slaughterer and its flesh as food being only a secondary object..." The Jhatka method has been described as killing the animal with one stroke of the weapon without exciting fear glands secreting poisons into its bloodstream and without causing harniftil psychic waves to emanate from the animal's mind."

The origin and basis of Halaal method of slaying animals by Muslims may have been sacrificial. However, by the time of the Sikh Gurus, it had just become a "Muslim method" without any consideration of its sacrificial origin. In fact, a separate class of professionals, called butchers, had emerged with the sole purpose of slaying the animals in this way. Thus, through the employment of butchers, the original idea of slaughtering the animal as a "sacrifice to God to expiate the sins of the slaughterer" had ceased to exist. The original practice had become professionalized and commercialized and remains so even now. So, according to the generally prevailing idea as advocated by many Sikh scholars, the main reason for imposing this taboo of not eating Halaal meat is not that it is sacrificial or even religious. Rather this taboo had been imposed primarily to liberate the Sikhs from mental slavery of the then rulers of the Muslim faith who had banned by law the slaying of animals by any method other than Halaal. If this interpretation is accepted, then the following points arise:


(i) With the changed times now, when there is no longer such coercion from any quarter, there should be no need for continuing this taboo in the list of the four taboos because the reason for the imposition of this taboo no longer exists.

(ii) It also implies that the four taboos which, have been declared by Satguru himself as basic and of fundamental importance, may not necessarily be conducive to spiritual enhancement of the soul through Naam-Simran; their objective being merely to create a spirit of moral, and, according to some, physical strength to face the unjust and tyrannic rule of the then rulers. Obviously, this cannot be the situation as the main and the only objective of the Satguru was and is to implant the Holy Naam firmly in the minds of the Sikhs through Holy Amrit (Khande-Ki.Pahul). One cannot imagine the All knowing Satguru imposing a taboo of such basic importance which has no relationship with, or which does not help his Sikhs in the achievement of the Spiritual Bliss.

(iii) If we accept this position of a taboo being imposed only to serve the conditions prevailing at a particular time, then we provide a pretext to the so-called Modern Sikhs who consider that the keeping of Keshas is no longer necessary in the changed times. They also contend that Kirpan is now of little significance in this atomic age. They openly assert that religion must change with the changing times. The spirit of Sikhism, according to them, lies only within the Sikhs and it has nothing to do with the outward appearance or baanaa. They further contend that the then prevailing circumstances made the necessity of keeping Sikhs unique and easily distinguishable. In the changed circumstances that necessity no longer exists. Thus, accepting the above background of the Kuthha will lead to total destruction of the edifice of Sikhism.

(iv) Moreover, how would we classify fish? Is it HaIaal or Jhatka?

(v) Meat-eating Sikh brethren advocate that the only touchstone to be used in deciding whether meat should be eaten or refrained from, is whether it creates trouble in the body and fills the mind with evil. If there is no such ill effect then there is no harm in eating it. In the support of this contention, they cite the following couplet from Gurbani:
"Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar
Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Mey Chaley Vikaar" (pg. 196)
O Baba! All other foods (except the Naam) create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

Evidently the foregoing couplet is a mis-quotation in this context because herein Guru Sahib is comparing all material foods with the Divine Food (i.e. Naam-Simran) and is decrying the former. The word HORE is very crucial in this couplet.It does not mean ANY food but any OTHER food, i.e., any food other than NAAM. In the absence of the Divine Food (Naam), all material foods will sicken the body as well as the soul. The very idea of eating meat fills the mind with evil making it aggressive and a partner in taking the life of an innocent creature. For this very reason, almost all of the well-known spiritually enlightened Gursikhs of the past and present have been and are shunning meat and allied non-vegetarian foods. Such foods are not conducive to spiritual development and Naam.Simran and, therefore, the all-knowing Satguru could not approve them.

(vi) In two Hukam Naamaas of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib there are clear cut instructions prohibiting the eating of meat, fish, etc. The actual words used are "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." when Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Siks's from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

CONTD>>>>>

CONTD>>>

The only hymn in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is specifically cited (by meat-eaters) in support of eating meat is the hymn of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the Var of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90 beginning with the couplet:

"Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.
Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.
Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey
Kis Mah Paap Samaaney" (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat. He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not. A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:


i. Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he c an achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. He has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

ii. It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

iii. The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.
One very well known Sikh writer, in his book on Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's life, while claiming that the above hymn supports meat eating, recommends that those Sikhs who seek spiritual bliss through Naam Simran should shun it! Well, devoid of Naam Simran Sikhism is reduced to naught.

At this point it would be worth mentioning two well known anecdotes from the life of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this respect:


i.During his visit to Lahore, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji happened to stay in the neighborhood of a big slaughter house. In the ambrosial hours of the early morning, he heard loud shrills and cries of the animals being butchered there. Then, in the daytime, he saw the population addicted to vices connected with meat, wine and women. He was so moved by this sight that he exclaimed:
"Lahore shahar zahar kahar sawa pahar" (pg. 1412)
God's curse is upon the city of Lahore for a quarter of the day*


ii. Duni Chand was holding a grand annual feast to feed the Brahmins in celebration of Saraadh ceremony for the peace of his departed father's soul. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji told him that his father had taken the body of a wolf and was starving on the nearby river bank at that time. Duni Chand immediately went there and saw the starving wolf. On seeing his son, the wolf died and thus spoke to him from his Astral or luminous body:
"In human body when I was nearing death, I smelt the flavor of meat being cooked in the neighboring house and felt an ardent desire for it. I died in the same state of mind. That is why I was given the body of a wolf so that I could fulfill my last desire in human life."

CONTD>>>>

CONTD>>>

Gurbani also says:


"Jit Laago Man Baasna, Ant Saaee Pragtaani" (pg. 267)
The desire to which the mind is attached, becomes manifest in the end.

This brings out clearly the thinking of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this respect.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating of animal flesh in clearcut and unambiguous language in a number of places:

"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh,Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee. (pg. 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey. Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey" (pg. 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e., life?)

"Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Deldi Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey" (pg. 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

"Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hai, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal" (pg. 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

"Kabir Bhaang, Mach liii Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey" (pg. 1376)
Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.

"Kabir Khoob Khaana Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon
Heraa Rotee Kaarney Galaa Kataavey Kon" (pg. 1374)
Blessed is the simple food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?

It is thus clear from the foregoing that the word Kuthha used in the Sikh Code of Conduct does not refer to Halaal or sacrificial meat at all, but refers to meat and allied products as a whole. It means simply to slay or cut the animal -whatever may be the method used for the purpose. The use of the word in the same sense at a number of places in Gurbani brings out this point beyond any shadow of a doubt. Accordingly, eating flesh in general (and not only Halaal) is totally prohibited for the Sikhs and is one of the four Cardinal Sins enunciated in the Sikh Code of Conduct. It is a great travesty of the factual position to assert that, tIn the Sikh Doctrine, therefore, there is no religious injunction for or against meat eating; it is a matter of individual choice and discretion, a most sensible principle.

All the Rahits (Do's) and Kurahits (Don'ts or taboos) are of fundamental importance in Sikhism. These are a pre-condition for one's being accepted for baptism or taking of Amrit which means nothing but Naam:

"Amrit Naam Parmesar Tera Jo Simray So Jeevey" (pg. 616)
God; Amrit is nothing but your Naam and he alone lives who meditates or contemplates on it.

Amrit Har Har Naam Hay Meri Jindareeay
Amrit Gurmat Paaey Ram" (pg. 538)
The Naam Divine is Amrit; and is obtained through the Guru's Instruction.

This very fact shows that all these commandments have definite spiritual import and thus are of intrinsic value. None of these, therefore, can be left to an individual's discretion.

Besides propagating this misinterpretation of the word Kathha and encouraging the Sikhs in general to eat meat, the same people have gone to the extent of giving the very respectable name of Mahaan Prasad to this absolutely proscribed and profane food. This has been done to mislead the general unsuspecting, simple and innocent Sikh masses in a very subtle way. It is a pity that many of us have fallen prey to this mischievous game, and have even started propagating this misinterpretation.

In the old Sikh literature, the word Mahaan Prasad has been used to denote the most sacred and sanctified food which is now commonly known as Karrah Prasad. Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji has used this terminology a number of times in his works, and all the commentators of his works, including those of Shromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (S.G.P.C.), have accepted this interpretation. Karrah Prasad has a very sacred and distinct place in Sikh tradition and practice, and has, therefore, been very aptly and correctly referred to as Mahaan Prasad.

I am waiting for ur comments Hiphoper.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ke fateh

mass khana sikh dharam ch mana hai.Sikh dharam jeevan utte dayya karan da updesh dinda hai.Jeev hatya karan da updeh nahin dinda.Dayya and hatya dono praspar virodi han.Jeevan utte dayya karan vare gurbani ch likhia hoia hai.Jeevan nu maran vare kite nahin likhia.Ann khan vare gurbani ch likhia hoia hai par mass khan vare kite nahin likhia.Mass ton bigair khana dev budhi val te mass khana rakhash budhi val lai janda hai.Guru Granth Sahib ch dayya vare kujh tukan es taran han :

Dhaul dharam dayya ka poot II ......... Page 3 (Jap ji)
Athsath tirath sagal pin jee dayya parvan II.... page 136 Man santokh sarab jee dayya II
En bidh barat sampuran bhyya II...........Page 299
Dayyalon sarab jeean panch dokh bibarjateh II....Page 1357

Ved kateb kahho matt jhuthhe juthha jo na vicharai II
Jau sab mein ek khudae keht ho tau kion murgi marai II P1350
Kabir khub khana kheechri ja meh amrit lon II
Hera roti karne gala katave kaun II....P1374
Hera mass nu kiha janda hai. Meat,mass, kutha,hera eko hi cheej hai.Os vele muglan da raj si tan kuthha kehnde san.Angrejan de aan ton ton baad meat v kehn lagge. Ehna de contents ch koi farak nahin.Jhattke jan halal karan nal eh amrit nahin ban janda.Rehnda tan mass hi hai.

Mass khan valian ne appne aap nu jibh da suad poora karan lyee jutify karan vaste kaddan kadd lyian han jo ek aam aadmi nu gumrah kardian han te gurmat anusar theek nahin han.Kise nal behas karan da koi fyda nahin hai.Je oh khanda hai tan khaee jave.Jaan bujh ke khande han.Je koi anjaane ch puchhda hai tan osnu dass devo.Nahin tan behas ch pai ke energy waste karan di kee lorr hai? Eh behas tan khatam nahin honi os aadmi nal jisne mass khaana hai.Osne guru di mat nahin laini te appni manmat hi karni hai.Fer appni gal gurmat anusar keh ke behas khatam kar deni chahidi hai.Changa fer hun fateh bulnde han
Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh.

Div Malik,


If I make you angry meditate and reflect..realise anger is a vice that has you. Youre anger is not caused by me. It is caused by a lack of simran. I have raised valid questions about the sikh meat issue. People who do not have resect for All life will surely never have peace.

God bless

I'm sorry, I just want to refute the argument that killing an animal is the same as killing a plant. When you chop a vegetables do they not die yes....but think about this, when you injure an animal doesn't it feel pain. Doesn't it run away???? Plants don't do this, therefore eating a plant is not the same as eating an animal. I don't think alot of you have the balls to kill an animal and eat it. Do that than maybe you can justify it. I'm sorry but the thought of eating an onion and an animal, don't seem the same to me, only to someone who is mentally ill, maybe you hiphopper. YOu seem especially close minded, why don't you and all the other khalistani's form you own Al Qaeda and bomb some stuff, because that is the direction your heading. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. To all the last comment was just anger to what I'm seeing nowadays, to all you Sikhs who are true and do not hate anyone than I am sorry. But to me Punjab is Punjab, that is where I'm from and our strength lies in its diversity. Seperation leads to weakness, just like what khalistan will be, "A WEAK NATION" like pakistan. Built on hatred, where will my family go, will you kill them and put them on a train????? I'm sorry this is a totally different argument. Eating meat is not the same as killing a plant, go to biology class or try to eat your dog then a onion and see how different it truly is.

i think mittar has won actually, hiphopper it seems like your goal is really to instill anger and ruffel feathers under a mask of enlightenment and forgiveness. Mittar ji, you have detailed much of your argument, good job. I will make an effort to not eat meat. Thank you.

I have returned after along time to this site..It apears that I have had the last word...So my understanding of this issue must be correct.

satnaam
Waheguru

Mittar ji

It seams that your ego has given you the abilty to speak with a condesending tone to me. Reffering to me to as "hiphopper dey bachai"...or that I have "drianed" my brain. It does not seem that being a vegitarian has helped you to attain enlightenment.

Please explain; If Guru Sahib ji has clearly explained the meat issue, why does it need to be mentioned in the Rehat?? Why mention "Kutha Meat" if ALL MEAT is prohibited? Do not avoid the question if you are a Sikh, be fearless in responding to me.

I am waiting for your respons, but do not respond in anger as in your previous post to me. Anger has no place in the life of a "Guru da Sikh" as you describe yourself.

Please, to get a further understanding of my thinking I would suggest that you scroll down this thread and read my previous posts. My 1st post was May 11/01.

Are you suggesting that I should be tortured? Did you just imply that Guru Govind Singh would have tortured me in boiling oil? My friend The Guru is the cure for suffering!! May your suffering cease with his blessing.

Praise the lord.
Satnam.

I'm wait for your response If you are capable of discussion without name calling and threats.

Sikh Meat Issue

It is a disturbing thought that many Sikhs believe that to attain spiritual enlightenment one can continue to tuck into a juicy steak, that the pain and suffering of the animal is separate to the succulent roast chicken on the table, that the cutting of the animals life force will not have a direct effect on their own 'karmic account '.

According to the maryada booklet , Kutha the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual killing is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is still silent. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGS) makes various references to not eating meat but since it does this in a subtle way this has been ignored by many and has been taken as a green light to consume flesh. For most Sikhs this is very convenient as it is easier to eat meat then not to. As it stands most Sikhs are of the opinion that meat is open to Sikhs and they produce copious amount of information and, supposedly evidence to support this.

Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

Here Guru ji clearly classifies meat with bad deeds.


The pro-meat lobby will site Guru Hargobind Sahib ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji as accomplished hunters, in a book called Sikh & Sikhism it states

"The game would have been cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste."

This is a case of authors making things up as they go along, pure conjecture. Do they not know who the Gurus were ? They were not ordinary human beings , in our Ardaas we call them ' Doe Jahan Dhai Vali' and 'Sristee they Malik'. The reason the Gurus went hunting was not for pleasure or the need to satisfy their taste buds, they were above this , it was to settle long overdue 'accounts' to release the souls of the poor unfortunate animals who may have wronged in the past, to grant them Mukti / salvation.

There is a story of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught Guru Ji watched as the baaj tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this Guru ji stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akal Purkhs name that he would pay it back, he never did, now was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death. In two Hukamnamas of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Ji there are clear cut instructions prohibiting the eating of meat, fish etc.

The actual words are "Maas machhi de nerrey nahai jawnaa"


Dr Gopal Singh in his History of the Sikh People.

" In the Gurus kitchen (or Guru Ka Langar) meat dishes are not served , maybe it is on account of it being perhaps expensive, or not easy to keep for long."

When has money stopped Sikhs from doing anything. An appeal at any local Gurudwara for funds for a project or disaster will yield hundreds of pounds donated by the sangat on the spot. A flesh eater will go to any lengths to get his fill, so this 'expensive' argument just does not hold.


Giani Sher Singh in his Philosophy of Sikhism.

"Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or non-destruction of life, which even extended to his followers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary allowed and even encouraged the use of animal flesh for food……"

Does the author go on to expand on this , does he give any evidence for this, no he does not. Again pure conjecture and speculation from people with hidden agendas. One should step back and think for a moment what is being said here. The Gurus were pure souls, Sikhs believe them to have merged with Akal Purkh are we then led to believe that they would tear into a chicken leg at meal time, piayrio don't even go there. Eating meat is a very primitive act and the Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually.

H.S Singha in his Mini Encyclopedia of Sikhism.

'Guru Amar Das Ji ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living.'

Why cannot it be evidence of vegetarianism ? If we look at the lives of the Gurus we should try to emulate as much of them as possible because we regard their lives as ideal living, then this should be part of it.

Now, lets get to the heart of what eating meat really means. We are talking about killing another being , cutting of its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. That's right, for the taste of it. We can exist quite happily without meat so why do many people feel the urge to consume it, taste plays a large part of it. Can we in our hearts believe that the Gurus advocated this?


Question : Do beings get born on this earth and have living bodies just to be a convenience food ?
Or do beings get born into a life with a body so that they can develop and eventually evolve away from Karma and into Dharma ?

In the beginnings of SGGS , Guru Ji says :

This human body has been given to you.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.
Nothing else will work.
Join the SaadhSangat, the company of the holy.
Vibrate and meditate on the Jewel on the Naam.
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.
Your are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya

I have not practiced meditation, self discipline,
Self restraint or righteous living.
I have not served the holy;
I have not acknowledged the Lord, my king.
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary, please preserve my honour.



The 'body' is given to all in order to meet Akal Purkh and the Guru says that there is no other way to meet him. By killing a healthy animal for consumption interrupts its life experience and its evolution towards meeting God. Animals can sense impending doom especially if they can hear the death throws of their colleagues having a 'bolt' driven into their skulls in the shed next door. This can evoke a very powerful glandular response in the animal and hormones are pumped into its body. When you eat that flesh you take on those hormones, and of course its Karma. This has a great effect on your Atma, for the Atma feels pain. By adding the karma of that soul to yours you are also interfering with your own desire to meet the Lord of the Universe. If you have not cleared away your own Karma why would you want to create the Karma of killing and consuming the flesh of another being ?

Sikhs do not eat or take into their bodies anything which is harmful or have an ill effect upon the body or mind. Meat is a stimulant of the gross passions of the mind and body. Meat is harmful on a physical, mental and spiritual level. You are killing a soul who is in the process of evolving towards god. Meat stimulates your 'lower nature' making it impossible to achieve a meditative spiritual mind set. If you want constant confusion and irritation then chew on a piece of flesh. If on the other hand if you want to evolve spiritually , open up the capacity for meditative comprehension of higher truths then the karmic and polluting nature of meat cannot be ignored.

It is said by many that plants also have life so why do we not abstain from eating plants ?
It is very true that plants do have life but the karmic energy and consequences of eating plants do not compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring.
Also plants ( and I am talking about the normal ones that we eat - lentils, maize , spinach etc) are not harmful on a mental, spiritual level but are in fact good for the digestion.

Much has been made of the Nihang Singh sect eating Maha Parshad, but the Nihangs also drink a concoction of Marihuana and opium called Suckha, are we all to start taking drugs because of this?



They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,
And eat a simple diet of grain and water.
(SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.
(SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment,
You will suffer terrible pain.
(SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect.
If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?
(SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.
You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?
(SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;
They eat rotting dead bodies for food.
(SGGS p1242

The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Var 31 pauree 9 :

"Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."




A final thought, the Sants and Mahapursh of the present day all warn us of the evils of eating meat. They all urge us to take Paol/Amrit and to give up maas, shraab and birri. Not one Sant has ever said otherwise.
As a young lad I can just remember the times when Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji (Krichowali) used to administer Amrit to hundreds to people up and down the country and they never ever condoned meat eating. In recent times I have also been blessed by darshans of Sant Baba Bhagwan Singh Ji (Southall), not once have they ever even entertained the notion of meat and Sikism. Surely, being spiritually on a higher plain then all of us if there was any ambiguity in the 'meat - no meat' argument Baba ji would have stated it. But instead they are fiercely against meat. So who are we going to believe, Sant Mahapurshs or some academic manmukh ?

Do we eat to live, or do we live to eat ?


From sikh-info.com

Sikh Meat Issue

It is a disturbing thought that many Sikhs believe that to attain spiritual enlightenment one can continue to tuck into a juicy steak, that the pain and suffering of the animal is separate to the succulent roast chicken on the table, that the cutting of the animals life force will not have a direct effect on their own 'karmic account '.

According to the maryada booklet , Kutha the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual killing is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is still silent. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGS) makes various references to not eating meat but since it does this in a subtle way this has been ignored by many and has been taken as a green light to consume flesh. For most Sikhs this is very convenient as it is easier to eat meat then not to. As it stands most Sikhs are of the opinion that meat is open to Sikhs and they produce copious amount of information and, supposedly evidence to support this.

Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

Here Guru ji clearly classifies meat with bad deeds.


The pro-meat lobby will site Guru Hargobind Sahib ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji as accomplished hunters, in a book called Sikh & Sikhism it states

"The game would have been cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste."

This is a case of authors making things up as they go along, pure conjecture. Do they not know who the Gurus were ? They were not ordinary human beings , in our Ardaas we call them ' Doe Jahan Dhai Vali' and 'Sristee they Malik'. The reason the Gurus went hunting was not for pleasure or the need to satisfy their taste buds, they were above this , it was to settle long overdue 'accounts' to release the souls of the poor unfortunate animals who may have wronged in the past, to grant them Mukti / salvation.

There is a story of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught Guru Ji watched as the baaj tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this Guru ji stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akal Purkhs name that he would pay it back, he never did, now was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death. In two Hukamnamas of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Ji there are clear cut instructions prohibiting the eating of meat, fish etc.

The actual words are "Maas machhi de nerrey nahai jawnaa"


Dr Gopal Singh in his History of the Sikh People.

" In the Gurus kitchen (or Guru Ka Langar) meat dishes are not served , maybe it is on account of it being perhaps expensive, or not easy to keep for long."

When has money stopped Sikhs from doing anything. An appeal at any local Gurudwara for funds for a project or disaster will yield hundreds of pounds donated by the sangat on the spot. A flesh eater will go to any lengths to get his fill, so this 'expensive' argument just does not hold.


Giani Sher Singh in his Philosophy of Sikhism.

"Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or non-destruction of life, which even extended to his followers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary allowed and even encouraged the use of animal flesh for food……"

Does the author go on to expand on this , does he give any evidence for this, no he does not. Again pure conjecture and speculation from people with hidden agendas. One should step back and think for a moment what is being said here. The Gurus were pure souls, Sikhs believe them to have merged with Akal Purkh are we then led to believe that they would tear into a chicken leg at meal time, piayrio don't even go there. Eating meat is a very primitive act and the Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually.

H.S Singha in his Mini Encyclopedia of Sikhism.

'Guru Amar Das Ji ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living.'

Why cannot it be evidence of vegetarianism ? If we look at the lives of the Gurus we should try to emulate as much of them as possible because we regard their lives as ideal living, then this should be part of it.

Now, lets get to the heart of what eating meat really means. We are talking about killing another being , cutting of its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. That's right, for the taste of it. We can exist quite happily without meat so why do many people feel the urge to consume it, taste plays a large part of it. Can we in our hearts believe that the Gurus advocated this?


Question : Do beings get born on this earth and have living bodies just to be a convenience food ?
Or do beings get born into a life with a body so that they can develop and eventually evolve away from Karma and into Dharma ?

In the beginnings of SGGS , Guru Ji says :

This human body has been given to you.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.
Nothing else will work.
Join the SaadhSangat, the company of the holy.
Vibrate and meditate on the Jewel on the Naam.
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.
Your are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya

I have not practiced meditation, self discipline,
Self restraint or righteous living.
I have not served the holy;
I have not acknowledged the Lord, my king.
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary, please preserve my honour.



The 'body' is given to all in order to meet Akal Purkh and the Guru says that there is no other way to meet him. By killing a healthy animal for consumption interrupts its life experience and its evolution towards meeting God. Animals can sense impending doom especially if they can hear the death throws of their colleagues having a 'bolt' driven into their skulls in the shed next door. This can evoke a very powerful glandular response in the animal and hormones are pumped into its body. When you eat that flesh you take on those hormones, and of course its Karma. This has a great effect on your Atma, for the Atma feels pain. By adding the karma of that soul to yours you are also interfering with your own desire to meet the Lord of the Universe. If you have not cleared away your own Karma why would you want to create the Karma of killing and consuming the flesh of another being ?

Sikhs do not eat or take into their bodies anything which is harmful or have an ill effect upon the body or mind. Meat is a stimulant of the gross passions of the mind and body. Meat is harmful on a physical, mental and spiritual level. You are killing a soul who is in the process of evolving towards god. Meat stimulates your 'lower nature' making it impossible to achieve a meditative spiritual mind set. If you want constant confusion and irritation then chew on a piece of flesh. If on the other hand if you want to evolve spiritually , open up the capacity for meditative comprehension of higher truths then the karmic and polluting nature of meat cannot be ignored.

It is said by many that plants also have life so why do we not abstain from eating plants ?
It is very true that plants do have life but the karmic energy and consequences of eating plants do not compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring.
Also plants ( and I am talking about the normal ones that we eat - lentils, maize , spinach etc) are not harmful on a mental, spiritual level but are in fact good for the digestion.

Much has been made of the Nihang Singh sect eating Maha Parshad, but the Nihangs also drink a concoction of Marihuana and opium called Suckha, are we all to start taking drugs because of this?



They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,
And eat a simple diet of grain and water.
(SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.
(SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment,
You will suffer terrible pain.
(SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect.
If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?
(SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.
You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?
(SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;
They eat rotting dead bodies for food.
(SGGS p1242

The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Var 31 pauree 9 :

"Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."




A final thought, the Sants and Mahapursh of the present day all warn us of the evils of eating meat. They all urge us to take Paol/Amrit and to give up maas, shraab and birri. Not one Sant has ever said otherwise.
As a young lad I can just remember the times when Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji (Krichowali) used to administer Amrit to hundreds to people up and down the country and they never ever condoned meat eating. In recent times I have also been blessed by darshans of Sant Baba Bhagwan Singh Ji (Southall), not once have they ever even entertained the notion of meat and Sikism. Surely, being spiritually on a higher plain then all of us if there was any ambiguity in the 'meat - no meat' argument Baba ji would have stated it. But instead they are fiercely against meat. So who are we going to believe, Sant Mahapurshs or some academic manmukh ?

Do we eat to live, or do we live to eat ?


From sikh-info.com

oye hiphoper de bacche
Apne akal ton kam lai
Use ur brain man......or i guess u hace drained it all
Langar is for guru ke sikhs not for hindus and muslims.........its a different thing that if they want they can come there and have it.
U cant be a sikh and if u r then u should be put in boling oil like guru gobind singh did with people like u
Khalsa belongs to god
Victory belongs to god.

""jo s ab main ek khudaye kehat hon
ton kyon murgi marrain""
meat eating is strictly not allowed in sikhism....
dont be befooled by some mean people....
be pure vegetarian
Khalsa belongs to god
Victory belongs to god.

Harbhajan,

The reason that in langar Meat is not prepared is because Different people have specific ways they need to have their meat prepared. Hindhus wont eat beef and muslims won't eat pork and have to have their meat prepared Halal. Langar is sposed to be a meal that all people can be a part of. So to not isolate any certain groups from eating langar there is no meat served. It is as simple as that.

Do you think that you are a better sikh than Sant Bhai Gurdass, a Sikh if 5th Guru Arjun Dev??

In his Varans he decribes how Guru Nanak accepts deer meat that was given to him. Please read it

be quiet moron. Isn't casteism against sikh religon, yet I am pretty sure you practice it, especially for marriage.
So shut up and enjoy meat. Infact, I just ate at McDonalds - beef burgers :-)

I would just like to say that eating meat is against
sikhism. The people who try and promote it eat meat
themselves.
Is meat and alcohol allowed in our Golden Temple? No!
If meat was allowed it would be on the menu at the
gurudwaras. Gurmat teaches compassion, sympathy and
consideration for all - Tere paney surbat da pala.
yes this includes animals. So where is the compassion
and sympathy when a screaming animal is crying for its
life and its throat is being slit open?
this is not religious --- wake up please!

having read all this talk, it seems as if everyone has the knowledge to make up their own minds and this is the very problem in Sikhi at the moment. we do little practice but plenty of reading of literature which is written by so called professors and learned scholars. Yet we do not practice the very essence of sikhism - to see god within all and practice naam & bani.


WHy go to see the doctor when you are going to question his judgement. Why become a Sikh if you are going to question the Guru. This issue of meat is something which educated scholars have brought in to decipher there own meaning of MEat. But have these scholars practised sikhi, i think not...


The issue of meat for sikhs is two-fold.


physically : we did not give life to an animal so why should we take it. Nowadays meat eaters create a demand for meat which outstrip supply and as such to keep up you have mass production meat farms . i.e chicken farms etc...


there is no harm in eating a dead animal as it was gonna die so you made use of the flesh but why did the gurus say no:

because spiritually :

you as sikhs are here for one mission and that is to fight the five sins of lust, anger, greed, attachment and ego which reside in your mind and to fight this the Gurus gave us NAAM and BANI. BAni to guide and correct and NAAm to purify the mind so it attaches to the soul and thus you realise the true aim of coming to earth - which is to reunite with god.


So how does meat fair in this spiritual journey.. basically it increases the mind's attention on the five sins. When you get blood on your clothes, they are stained, when you drink the blood of animals through meat and tharee, you stain your soul and hence that is why Sikhs shoudl not eat meat.


The great debate of animals to plants is this which is a scientifc inapparoach. Most of you have studied plants and animals in school so don't you know the huge contrast in structure. Basically plants do not have emotions as they have no nervous system and if they do in is a stark difference to animals. Plants cannot think whereas aninals can, and as such plant cannot move as aniamls can...so please do not reduce your mental capacity to zero by suggesting that eating plants is the same as eating meat for plants actually improve your spirtual well being and meat reduces it.


And to all those who say that any of the gurus ate meat...how dare you!! what have you read and what level are you at to decipher such a blasphemy. Probabaly you are from the nihang dall mentality but if i may say so you interpretataions are flawed as much of the stories of the gurus eating meat comes from writers themselves who have interpreted bits and fro other religion fundamentalists who wish to pollute and destrengthen the SIkh religion But you all know what, lets stop this talk, practice the Guru's saying and them ask yourself why you should eat meat......


BUt that is the hard thing.. if you did you'd realise you were wrong...


Forget reading books, practice the essenc of sikhi, follow the guide of gurbani and meditate on NAAM, find mistakes in yourself and not others, then the true path shall behold in front of you...SIKHi is about believing in something that is not physical but spiritual and invisible to the eyes of your body but which is visible to the eyes of your soul...so are you ready to question yourself rather than question the Gurus

I just wanted to say

hello all

Wahe guru ji ka Khalsa
Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh
Main eh discussion padi. ki tuhanu nahin lagda ke tusin faltu di bahas wich pae rahe ho ik jeeb de sawad piche. kyon ke jo jeeb da sawad nahin chad sakde (meat eaters especially) oh koi na koi tarak vitarak den ge hi. baki soch apni apni
Age asin tan drame de patar han oh(Wahe guru) drama dekh reha hai director , producer, writer
usdian oh hi jane

In response to those who are daring non-vegetarians to eat human flesh... there is but one response... Why?

Why should a nonvegetarian have to eat human flesh? I eat meat... I like to eat meat as do many others, but not eating human flesh does notmake me a hypocrite. How does it do so? Please enlighten me.

Murdering a human for food, and murdering an animal for food are as different as murdering an animal for food and murdering a plant for food. By your logic, a person who eats "chicken" but not humans is a hypocrite... but by that same logic a person who eats plants but not chicken is a hippocrite as well...

Obviously, the logic is flawed :-)

HI ALL
i m new to this site. i ve gone through the whole cnnversation since oct 07,2000 to dec 17,2001 by all my friends. issue is 'wether to eat meat or not' and all my friends (good / bad) blaming each other.some of them are proving that they are on right by giving some of the shabads from SGGS, but not complete shabads. they are proving themselves as on right by reading / writing incomlete shabads.
i m going to suggest all the friends before they start writing any thing about eating meat is allowed or not in Sikhism, they should go through a book with full details and meanings of shabads form our SGGS.
the book i m talking about is 'MAAS MAAS KAR MOORAKH JHAGREn ' written by S.GURBAKSH SINGH JI KALA AFGANA,1445-86 AVENUE DELTA (B.C.), V4C 8Y9 CANADA.Ph 604-572-6817.
please do not fight(jhagro like moorakhs) on the issue .come read on read this book, and then talk any thing. BHARAVO KUSH PARAN DEE AADAT PAVO TAN KI SAHI SOCH DA PATA LAG SAKE.

Maybe if you was a aussiesikh I might consider what you have to say, but since you is a Jat and are more proud of that than your enlightenment why should I listen to what your saying. Please tell me about Bhai Gurdass's account about Guru Nanak eating meat. Have you ever read the Vars of Bhai Gurdass. If not you should, you plant killer!! every bite you eat without the rememberance of god is like eating poison. Yes even plant is not a good food because without Naam all food is in selfishness.

hi, are you confused about the meat eating issue? would you like a better understanding and even quotes from the gurugranth sahib to back this issue up?

Please go to www.info-sikh.com
then click meat eating issue

TUROK YOU FUKKIN' HYPOCRITE WHY DON'T YOU EAT HUMAN MEAT? - ITS ALL THE FUKKIN' SAME TO YOU, PLANTS ANIMALS AND HUMANS ARE ALL LIVING BEINGS.

ALL MEAT EATERS ARE FUKKIN' HYPOCRITES!!! ESPECIALLY TUROK THE BIGGEST FUKKIN' HYPOCRITE.

To Turok

So as a meat eater why don't you kill humans and eat them? Obviously it should make no difference to you whats so ever as plants, animals and humans are all living beings. So Turok whats stopping you eating human flesh?

Vegetarians who say meat eating is savage can sukk my cokk.

Plants are living beings. When you kill or uproot them they cannot even scream. Atleast animals can scream. SHAME on you savage vegetarians. Killing things that cannot even verbally protest against it.

FUKKIN' HYPOCRITES!!!

why is meat eating such a issue? are there not better issues to talk about. We are here not to just quench our hunger and thirst. Attachments does include what we consume. To much attachment in something causes distractions of our thought about God. Are animals nothing? They do have feelings, but they cant tell you. I would like to see people that appose vegetarianism to first.. go out and kill a animal for there hunger with there bare hands, and then come back and say..how they felt. Animals have to survive, so some must kill other animals, God has given them such adaptatoins such as there Teeth. Are humans Teeth designed by God to tear such flesh. NO! We have been influenced by societies to do so, so i dont blame people for eating meat. If you have so much faith in what you have read in the Guru Granth Sahib, why is such a little thing like eating meat affecting you. Do you have not enough foods other than flesh to consume? Sikh baptism is not a joke. One must fully have control of themselves. First i would like you to slaughter a animal and eat it with your bare hands then, try to read your gutka. you yourself know this is not right at the bottom of your heart.

believe and you shall know the rightous path. do not become head strong and look for arguments

I think that you all have interesting points and views- most of them sound like you feel trapped and want things to change. Our parents and grandparents did not have the opportunities we have today. When they read or listen to the guru granth sahib they don't understand everything- just like us. So instead they take the things they have learnt and use them as guidelines. They teach us what they think is right. I have been reading a translation of the prayers we have in sikhism. The things i have learnt- t shared with my family. If you want things to change- there is no point moaning about it - do something about it. I think it is ignorant to think that one religion is better than another. All the prophets, gurus, holy people god sent down- they are Gods messengers- how can you diss them?!?!? Every religion is similar- it is the slight differences that we like to kill eachother over. WHY??? The best thing any sikh person could do is live like guru nanak dev ji did. Wake up early in the morning- bathe- pray and eat just enough to fill you up (not be greedy) and love everyone that comes in your path. Life is too short for all the arguments and disagreements.

Intresting shit !!!

Dear Ex Sikh!!

I agree with your concerns about current problems. But we don't have to austracise 'Sikhsim' just because our contemporary 'Sikhs' are bad. Some Sikhs might have been decayed mentally but that does not effect the original ideology of Sikhism.

I am not a Sikh because of Badal, Tohra, Jagir Kaur etc, but because of our Gurus, their teachings, ideology and sacrifice. These egoistic sikhs would persih, but the Sikhsim will stand and survive with high esteem,as it has done through ages, even with the hardships around it, forever......

Dear Ex Sikh!!

I agree with your concerns about current problems. But we don't have to austracise 'Sikhsim' just because our contemporary 'Sikhs' are bad. Some Sikhs might have been decayed mentally but that does not effect the original ideology of Sikhism.

I am not a Sikh because of Badal, Tohra, Jagir Kaur etc, but because of our Gurus, their teachings, ideology and sacrifice. These egoistic sikhs would persih, but the Sikhsim will stand and survive with high esteem,as it has done through ages, even with the hardships around it, forever......

Hi all

just to say Sikhism was created by non-jat Hindus.

sikhs killed sikhs.
yes.used by the centre.
gaddars are not a new thing.
but where else do you go f you dont believe in sikhism.i dont feel comfortable anywhwre else than sikhism.it is more humane than even modern day liberalism.
i dont follow the "regular" sikhism.more so bordering on ONE CREATOR view.
but this one creator of all humanity plys His games.
he only weas responsible for creating hinduism,islam,christianity etc,.three is no other explanation than perhaps that GOD is perhaps less than GOOD.
but he is our master anyway.
someday we shall wake up and find there is no one else except Him and that everyone else too is i myself.

So where does the jat caste fit in to Sikhism?

Im just realy fed up of guru this and that. I believe in ONE creator but do not believe in any divisions. Im afraid sikhs today are divided so much that they even resorted to killing each other after the Golden temple was stormed. Sikhs in the Indian army/police killing thousands of other sikhs. Absolutley disgraceful. I fealt betrayed by Sikhism when that happened. Sikhs could not become united in Punjab. It just put me right off sikhism. And YES christians have also killed christians and muslims killed muslims. Everyone has lost FAITH.

look ex sikh,
i am a sikh of the jat caste.
now is that a contradiction?
isnt a white in britain a christian of anglo-saxon/welsh/scottish backgroud etc?cant u take it in that sense?
sikhism teaches us to forget about racism(casteism)
but it would obviously be difficult where people have these beliefs for thousands of years.even muslims in indian subcontinent with their similar beliefs about equality of humanity have lower and upper castes.

if you are atheist,can u tell me why u dont believe in god?

Yo, ex-sikh I think your right about sikhism and its divisons.

I think SIKHISM today is in a STATE OF SHAMBLES. And before you say it YES other religions Like Christainity and ISLAM also have DIVISIONS but SIKHS today are DIVIDED and SUB-DIVIDED by cultural differences and interpretation of SIKHISM. There are towns where their are opposing TEMPLES one sikh follows a particular GURU the other a different GURU. Than you have CASTE which is being THRUST down the throats of young SIKHS. If caste is such an important issue THAN WHY DONT YOU ALL FOLLOW HINDUISM !!!!

WJKK
WJKF

In Pali, the ancient north indian language that was spoken by lord Sri Siddarta Guatama Buddha, sikh means "gods chosen people."

WJKK
WJKF

WJKK
WJKF

In Pali, the ancient north indian language that was spoken by lord Sri Siddarta Guatama Buddha, sikh means "gods chosen people."

WJKK
WJKF

SOOHEE, 5th GURU, GUNVANTEE ~
THE WORTHY AND VIRTUOUS BRIDE: When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow
and
fall at his feet. I tell to him the pain of my soul, and beg him to unite
me
with the Guru, my Best Friend. I ask that he impart to me such an
understanding, that my mind will not go out wandering anywhere else. I
dedicate this mind to you. Please, show me the Path to God. I have come so
far, seeking the Protection of Your Sanctuary. Within my mind, I place my
hopes in You; please, take my pain and suffering away! So walk on this
Path, O
sister soul-brides; do that work which the Guru tells you to do. Abandon
the
intellectual pursuits of the mind, and forget the love of duality. In this
way, you shall obtain the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; the hot
winds
shall not even touch you. By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I
speak
all that the Lord commands. I am blessed with the treasure of the Lord's
devotional worship; Guru Nanak has been kind and compassionate to me. I
shall
never again feel hunger or thirst; I am satisfied, satiated and fulfilled.
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet. || 3 ||
10th Saawan, Wednesday 25th July, 2001 (Page : 763)


Guru Arjun is describing what he would do if he meets a Sikh. So how many people here think that they are Sikhs? Do you have the same qualities that the Sikh Guru Arjun Dev is describing?

Now you know what constitutes a Sikh.

There she goes again!

Sunny You may be a Jat butt...nay..NOT a Sikh! The Gurus never intended a Jat Sikh or any classes (if you don't like 'castes')..May be your telling us that you're better than the Gurus?

Gurdeep, I thought that being an "untouchable" was of Hindu thought not Sikh thought? Please enlighten me as I am a Jat Sikh, who believes in the equality of mankind! Or in other words Jats are neither better not worse than any other Sikh group. Regards,

Why do educated sikh people botha with this 666 in sunny he obviously is a great sell out to sikhism so leave him in that sorry state, Guru ji said a moorak will always be a moorak so don't waste time, these sikh posts(advice) can be given to sikh loving people. sunny has proved his worth he is a complete untouchable in sikhism.

May God grant you some knowledge of humility and respect sunny.

And I thought Sunny Singh is a 'SIKH'!

I thought "sikh" means disciple?

Is not my definition.
Its Gods definition, read the GGS JI and find out.
Yes there are sikhs on earth but they are far and few in between. Very Very Few.

Hi Sikh, by your definition, there are NO Sikhs! Regards,

Sunny Kaur thinks that alcohol drinking jats from 200 years ago were SIKHS. Ha Ha Ha . What a fool. Sunny has no idea about what is a sikh.

NOTICE THAT SUNNY SPELLS JATS IN CAPS AND sikh IN LOWER CASE. SUNNY HAS MORE PRIDE IN BEING A JAT THAN BEING A PERSON OF SIKH DECENT. SUNNY IS A EVIL PERSON THAT DOES"NT KNOW IT.

Thats the whole problem sunny ji.
those people were not sikhs as your testimony of them drinking alcohol prooves. Sikhs don't drink "sharab". They were Jatts which is a race and not sikhs who are holy saints. One can only be a sikh if he/She follows the way guru Nanak lived. Nam Japo , Vand shako, kirat karo! Not by bieng born to people who believe that guru Nanak was a saint are you a Sikh. A sikh is one who is a saint him/herself. Your deffinition and the Britishes' deffinition of what constitutes a sikh is incorrect!!

Hi folks, perhaps to clear up some things, here is a posting from the Jat thread by Mr. XXX concerning European accounts of Sikhs (around 1790's).

Also, as per the early European accounts of the Sikhs-- " they were heavy drinkers,ate Hog's meat, and their cooks used to be Bramins--also, almost all of these early Sikhs were JATS"

Regards,

Hi confused,

Yes not eating pork is a hindhu thing and not eating pork is a muslim thing. The advice you were given was based on cultural values. These cultural values do not represent truth, or Sikhi. If you seek advice on weather to eat or not eat any type of meat I suggest you start reading the Guru Granth Sahib and you will find your answers.

What are your views about eating Pork and especially BEEF.
I been to punjab and I have been told that only the chura and chamar castes eat pork and no one eats beef execpt muslims.

I asked why then do western sikhs eat Pork and Beef ( McDonalds and Burger King), while it is not allowed in punjab or allowed to be cooked.
My elders say that eating beef and pork causes one to be kicked out of the community and then you have to join the chamar caste (in olden days).

Now isn't not eating beef a hindu thing and not eating pork a muslim thing ?

By Sandeep Singh Brar.

The creator of www.sikhs.org


Hunting Purely for Amusement & Sport - Not for Any Religious Reasons

Guru Gobind Singh, Vachitra Natak (Guru Gobind Singh 'autobiography', Chapter 8, Chaupai 1-3

"When I became a Spiritual Sovereign, I tried to spread Religion to the best of my ability. I hunted various games in the forest, including bears, nilgaus and elks. Then, I left my home and proceeded towards the city of Paunta. On the banks of the Kalindri, I refreshed and amused myself with many kinds of amusements. There, I killed many ferocious lions and also nilgaus and elks."


Bhai Gurdas, Var 26 Pauri 24
"Earlier Gurus sat on the pontific throne, Leading a life of peace and contentment; Hargobind keeps dogs for sports, And goes out for hunting wild animals."


Creation of the Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh in 1699

All of the Sikh chronicles record the fact that during the ceremony of initiating the first five Sikhs into the Khalsa brotherhood Guru Gobind Singh asked for volunteers who would be willing to give their heads. He took each volunteer into the tent and a loud thud was heard and blood trickled out of the tent. Guru Gobind Singh then emerged from the tent with his sword dripping with blood and asked for the next volunteer. Eventually Guru Gobind Singh emerged from the tent with the five beloved ones alive. He pulled back the covers of the tent and revealed to the thousands gathered that he had really slaughtered five goats with his sword and not the five beloved ones.


Guru Nanak Eating Meat

Bhai Mani Singh (he was the scribe for the first Guru Granth Sahib that was dictated by Guru Gobind Singh), Gyan Ratnavali (the name of the Janam Sakhi he wrote), pg. 123

At Kurukshetra, a great centre of Hindu pilgrimage, where a big fair was being held on the occasion of the solar eclipse. A follower of the Guru offered him deer meat to eat. The Guru who had never made any distinction between one kind of food and another and took whatever was offered to him, did not refuse the courtesies of his devotee. And he allowed him to roast it for his food.

Sikhs! Don't let your wives have a Vegetarian Diet!


Vegetarian diet linked to genital defects

A vegetarian diet may put babies at risk

by BBC Bristol health correspondent Matthew Hill
A vegetarian diet could be responsible for genital defects in baby boys, according to BBC-funded research carried out by scientists in Bristol.

Researchers found that boys born to vegetarian mums are five times more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a condition that effects the male urethra.

The urethra is the tube that carries the urine from the bladder to an external opening.

In males, the urethra should open at the tip of the •••••. If the urethra opens below the tip of the •••••, this is called hypospadias.

There are various grades of hypospadias depending on how far down the shaft of the ••••• the urethral opening is located.

The only way to correct this is with surgery, which is usually performed at one to two years of age.

Children with hypospadias should never be circumsized as the foreskin may be used to repair the hypospadias.

Hypospadias is very painful, often combined with undescended testicles and could lead to testicular cancer.

The number of cases of hypospadias has doubled in the past 30 years.

The increase mirrors an increase in other problems with the male reproductive system such as low sperm count, undescended testicles and testicular cancer.

The research was carried out by Bristol University's "Children of the 90s" Project which is investigating the health of 14,000 children born at the start of this decade.

The researchers found 51 boys suffering from hypospadias.


Pesticides implicated

They believe that a vegetarian diet alone is unlikely to cause hypospadias.

But they think vegetarians are probably eating more of something that is to blame - soya is a suspect.

According to the researchers, the defect may be caused by crop pesticides or naturally occurring chemicals called phytoestrogens.

Phytoestrogens are generally thought to be behind hormonal imbalances leading to defects.

The researchers say that more investigations are needed before the link can be properly established.

Project leader Professor Jean Golding says: "We know that vegetables are good for all sorts of reasons and we are certainly not advocating that people stop eating vegetables.

"We think, however, that such studies may help us find answers to this distressing condition.

"It is potentially disastrous for the human race, and it is important that it is addressed early."

Professor Golding said the majority of mothers of affected boys were meat-eaters, but proportionately vegetarian mothers were at greater risk of producing a boy with the condition.

Kym Godier, 32, of Wells, Somerset, began a parents' national support group after her son Thomas was born with the hypospadias defect.

Thomas, now three, had corrective surgery and is "fine", says his mother.

She said: "I was shocked and confused when I heard of this condition as there seemed no-one to turn to for explanation.

"I was surprised to hear that vegetarians were more at risk as you generally think of them leading a healthier lifestyle."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_286000/286265.stm

WJKK
WJKF

Lets take a closer look and Examine the translated quotes that have been posted by khalsa...I'm simply trying to present another way of looking at their meaning.

"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh, Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee." (Panna 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you
consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

**(This is suggesting that sacrificing animals to god is not religion. And that the persons adressed here are not holy people because their beliefs are false. if anything they are just butchers)**

"Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar.
Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Mey Chaley Vikaar" (Panna 196)
O Baba! All other foods (except the Naam) create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

**(It looks like Sikhs should NOT EAT ANY FOODS because food will fill our minds with evil. Perhaps this excludes vegs friuts and baked goods? What about water? I think it is a food too.)**

"Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani.
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee" (Panna 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.

**(this just means that the unenlightend pundit does not consider the value of life even though he reads the Vedas. Like all of the vegitarians that don't consider that the vegitables struggle to survive (yes they are life if you are not educated in biology) and eat them with out considering thier life.)**

"Abhakhya Ka Kuthha Bakra Khanaa.
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa" (Panna 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims
which the hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.

**( The "unspeakable" word is renounced and so is the kitchen square. Does it say that meat is evil?)**

"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, jhoothhaa jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho, Tio Kio Murghi Maarey" (Panna 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you
consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e. life?)

**(Yes, Why do you kill life if you see god in All?! Is god not in the tomatoes or the grass that you kill and chop to manicure your lawn? Maybe God is also not in the wheat that you have killed and processed so you can make roti! from the same shabad next line says "|| O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice? The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. || 1 || Pause || You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay. The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?" GGS pg1347 Kabir jis bani. **

"Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Deldi Avar Nahin Dekhey, Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey" (Panna 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e. religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This
utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

**(Again it is stressed that you should not kill for YOUR RELISH (lust, desire, pleasure) but if there is another reason which is beyond Kam Krodh Lob Moh Hunkar what about then??)**

"Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar, Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Dafter Daee Jab Kaadh Hai, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal" (Panna 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

**(All of those who kill life and think it is sacrificial to god...Again this speaks out against the philisophical idea of Hallal. Sikhs believe that we can't sacrifice to god that which is already gods'. If we continue to believe in false things we will never have salvation, what will happen in the court of the lord then?)**

"Kabir Khoob Khanna Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon Heraa
rotee Kaarney Galaa Kataavey Kon" (Panna 1374)
Blessed is the simple of food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter,
for the meat one eats here?

**(Another translation I found for this verse is;

"Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?"
(What Kabir is trying to portray is not very clearcut for me. I don't have a opinion on his meaning)**

"Kabir Bhaang, Mach Iiii Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey" (Panna 1376)
Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste

**(Actually the Quote does not include the term "flesh" just fish marijuana and wine. So what about lobster and pork? Are we really interpreting what he is saying correctly? What about when the Khalsa of Guru Govind Singhs time used to treat the wounded khalsa with bhang to make the pain less when they were heavily wounded? It is known that in cases of extreme injury like severed limbs Marijuana was used to lessen the pain as a medicine. What about that? Would Baba Kabir say that those Khalsa that used it for treatment to lessen the pain of maming were sent to hell?)**

I think these quotes have been presented out of context to support a vegitarian lifestyle. These are just my interpretations of the Quotes so I might be reading them out of context aswell.

May Waheguru give us the ability to see right from wrong

WJKK
WJKF

Khalsa ji

WJKK
WJKF

It seems that you do not consider plant life of any value. They are alive so why do you kill them?? Have you ever thought that plants too struggle to live like ALL life on this planet?

You are a Khalsa, so I assume you live by the Reyat Miryada. Please Explain why the Reyat says to not eat hallal (Kutta) meat? Why the concern for Hallal if all meat is disallowed? Have you ever taken this into consideration?

If meat is eaten for some reason that is out side the realm of Kam Krod Lob Moh and hunkar it is O.K. to eat it. There is nothing that a Sikh can do that is wrong if it is outside these 5 influences. Yes I do agree that the majority of meat eaters eat meat out of lust which is not acceptable in Sikhi, But if need be a Sikh can eat meat for the right reasons whatever they may be. When the Khalsa militia forces (During and after Guru Govind Singh) were trapped in the jungles and forests between battles the majority of their diet consisted of animal meat. This is a fact. You can go and study Khalsa History. They Nihangs Still Slaughter a Goat on one day of the Year to commemerate thier history and the Nihangs are really Khalsa. They are trained Warrior-Saints. Unlike the majority of people who say they are Khalsa but do not physically train to uphold the Warrior part in Warrior-Saint.


WJKK
WJKF

Khalsa Ji

WJKK
WJKF

I forgot to include this.

You started your last post with a statement that completely contradicted your position. You Clearly lied and said that you were not interested in this topic but yet proceeded to argue your point very loudly. Now accepting the fact you are a person that says one thing and does another, can we really believe your statements hold any merit or value for us to reflect upon?

WJKK
WJKF

Khalsa, now there is little doubt that Sikhism is against the consumption of meat, but why did the Jat convert into Khalsa still continue this habit, while most other non-Jat did not???

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN AND START ACCEPTING THE FACTS? I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THIS USELESS DEBATE BUT NEVERTHELESS I HAVE GOT SOMETHING FOR YOU ALL AND THIS IS FROM
--- OUR --- SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI --
PLEASE PAY ATTENTION AND STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON THIS DEBATE.

***** Eating Meat *****

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prohibits eating animal flesh in clear-cut and unambiguous language in a number of places:

"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh, Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee." (Panna 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you
consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

"Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar.
Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Mey Chaley Vikaar" (Panna 196)
O Baba! All other foods (except the Naam) create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

"Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani.
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee" (Panna 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.

"Abhakhya Ka Kuthha Bakra Khanaa.
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa" (Panna 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims
which the hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.

"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, jhoothhaa jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho, Tio Kio Murghi Maarey" (Panna 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you
consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e. life?)

"Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Deldi Avar Nahin Dekhey, Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey" (Panna 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e. religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This
utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

"Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar, Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Dafter Daee Jab Kaadh Hai, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal" (Panna 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

"Kabir Khoob Khanna Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon Heraa
rotee Kaarney Galaa Kataavey Kon" (Panna 1374)
Blessed is the simple of food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter,
for the meat one eats here?

"Kabir Bhaang, Mach Iiii Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey" (Panna 1376)
Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA - WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Here's an amazing story that's got to be told,
about the Big 5 thieves and the life they stole:

While I was asleep one creeped in like a mouse,
He let the others in and they burnt down my house!
They tortured me as I lay in bed,
Then they called the big boss to beat me around the head,
And as I suffered in agony and in pain
I realised the torturers were in my brain -
Because as I looked around my vicinity
There was no-one physically beating me.

But it was real because I was grasping for breath,
I didn't recognise the 5 but their boss was Death,
Then I begged to Waheguru to please explain,
Why I was in agony and why I was in pain?
And all the answers came through my Guru,
What I did wrong and now what I should do.

True Guru Nanak gave me love and affection
through shabds that would stop this affliction,
Like a wonderful doctor of happiness,
Guru Nanak held my hand and hugged me to the chest.

Now I tell you friends what Guru Nanak told me,
This is the help from Waheguru so listen carefully:

'My beautiful friends Waheguru made the creation,
and made Planet Earth for us to do meditation,
Our body temples should become loving and pure
and we will merge with Wonderful Waheguru for sure.
But my beautiful friends the world's on fire,
People have been totally burned with desire,
No one shares anything with anyone else,
All we think is sex, money and self,
And the name of the 5 who give us punishment:
EGO, LUST, ANGER, GREED and ATTACHMENT'.

Here's an amazing story that's got to be told,
about the Big 5 thieves and the life they stole:

A proudy-proud man was born on the track
He told the Death-train to stay well back,
With the train being so far away
the proudy-proud man began to play.

He built a lovely house and began to do
all of those things that he wanted to,
but before he knew it the thieves were there
and he fell into their trap of despair.

Each thief tied a leash around his throat
and wherever they pulled he'd follow like a goat,
At first he enjoyed following them around
then he tried to escape but was always found.

After having a lifetime living like this
he fully realised this life was the pits,
Then one day the 5 tied him to the track
Stepping off the side they told him to look back,
and laughing at his life this is what they said:
'Here comes the train, Ha! Ha! You're DEAD!'

Now I tell you friends what Guru Nanak told me,
This is the help from Waheguru so listen carefully:

'My beautiful friends Waheguru made the creation,
and made Planet Earth for us to do meditation,
Our body temples should become loving and pure
and we will merge with Wonderful Waheguru for sure.
But my beautiful friends the world's on fire,
People have been totally burned with desire,
No one shares anything with anyone else,
All we think is sex, money and self,
And the name of the 5 who give us punishment:
EGO, LUST, ANGER, GREED and ATTACHMENT'.

What's gonna happen if we carry on like this?
The Big 5 Thieves are too hard to resist,
They've been here since Man began
so they're pretty damn good at doing their 'thang' !

I can't see them, I can't smell them
I can try but I just can't overwhelm them,
It doesn't matter if I'm asleep or awake
They're in my system and impossible to shake:
A pretty girl walks by and my eyes go with her,
A skinhead calls me 'PAKI' and I fill with anger,
I love myself because I'm so pretty and tall,
I think I'm the best and others are small.
I've got a flash car and loads'a money
I've got loads'a friends and my jokes are funny,
I'm full of youth - I'm living fast
jump into my Porsche and let the music BLAST!
This is great - lets get pissed at the pub
Lets smoke some dope and watch the girls nightclub.

Attached to my ambitions - attached to my past,
Attached to my prejudices - attached to my caste,
Attached to my beer - attached to my dope,
Is there no way out - is there no hope?

Like the image in a photo I just can't get out
Like a man overboard I'm drowning in doubt,
Break all the watches! Smash all the clocks!
I want the world to STOP . . .
tick-tock . . . tick-tock . . . tick-tock . . .
But the beat in the background just carries on
The power driving the creation is way too strong.

And even if I had the power to never get old,
even if I was Hulk Hogan brave and bold,
And even if I was President of the United Worlds
even if I was 'Take That' desired by girls,
even if everyone knew Madonna was my name
and bowed before my ever increasing fame,
And even if I was 'Magic' with a basketball
Infront of Waheguru I am nothing at.

Only The Creator's power can start and stop Time,
Only The Creator's power can stop the 5 from crime,
Only The Creator's power sent forth the Omniverse,
And only The Creator's power will put it into reverse.

I bow to The Power, to The Power Supreme,
Waheguru is real - the world's a dream,
And I'm asleep how can I awake ?
I beg to Guru Nanak to plan my escape:
'I am nothing - I'm nothing at all,
Please Dear Guru please hear my call,
The five thieves have conquered me
Please Dear Guru please give me the remedy'.

Now I tell you friends what Guru Nanak told me,
This is the help from Waheguru so listen carefully:

'The True Guru is great and the only One who's free
From the grasp of this evil enemy,
To True Guru Nanak give your head
then you will be alive because your'e dead,
Yes, your body still lives but your desires are quenched
and your mind with Amrit has been drenched.'

And how did I put the Thieves to rest?
Well, the Guru gave me the security system best:
Blessed are those in whose heart is The Word,
Blessed are those in whose hand is the sword.
Now with these weapons I travel about
To fight the battles inside me and out.

I bow to The Power, The Power of the Lord,
The symbol of this Power is the double-edged sword,
I bow to The Love, The Love of the Lord,
This love flows freely, freely in Guru Nanak's Word.

The thieves are controlled by the Queens and Kings,
Forever live these Khalsa Kaurs and Singhs,
On becoming free they fill with love
Filling with love they fly like a dove,
Flying like a dove they enter a Wonderful Place,
Beyond Wonderful Time and Wonderful space,
Where they forever love the Wonderful Lord
and Waheguru's Word and Waheguru's Sword.

Bal

Kam Krod lob moh and hunkar are the 5 demons/passions.

Sikhism/buddism/hinduism and other eastern religions say that these 5 are the cause of everything we as humans do. EVERY thought or action that you perform is done in order to please these 5 aspects of our being. These 5 have created a illusion for us as humans and we do not see God or realise god enlightenment because of them.

The 5 are

Kam-Desire of any kind,lust, sexual desire..
Krod-Anger
Lob-greed
Moh-Emotional attachment to physical things, Even people
Hunkar-Ego, sence of self, I am-ness.

So these 5 are the root of everthing we do and they hold us back from oneness with God, or being saved or whatever you want to call it. These 5 Make us forget god because we are so caught up in them and live our lives to satisfy them.


There are people who have been alive and are alive today on who these 5 don't have a strangle hold. These people are gods saints. They live in the Will of God and not their own will. They have realised god and the 5 demons do not haunt them any more. They are in bliss/heaven/nirvana because God has graced them and they are free.

I hope you now understand the 5 demons and see how they relate to you. Nanak says every action we do to satisfy these 5 leads to pain. Not only that but these 5 can NEVER be satisfied only banished by the grace of God.
Satnaam

Hi Bal,

Here's a rough interpretation:

1.
Kaam - lust
Krodh - Anger
Lob - Greed
Moh - Worldly attatchment
Hunkar - arrogance

2. I think the 5 demons/passions are the above, and no different.

Hope this helps! If someone has a better interpretation or whatever, then do offer it to us.

Kiran7

Hi,

Can someone please explain the following.....
1.kam krod lob moh and hunkar.
2.the 5 demons/passions

Thanks

Gurudeep singh ji.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji Ki fathey

You believe that eating meat is prohibited in Sikhism.

As you said Sikhs live in a hindhu society. I believe Your belief has been influenced by hindhu culture.

We know that Guru-Har Govind to Govind Singh were hunters. So where is the sin in killing or eating?

You mentioned the Sikh reyat. Can you pleas explain why is says that a sikh can not eat Hallal Meat??
Why have a concern about sikhs eating Hallal meat is eating meat in general is prohibited.?

I'm sure you can appreciate Why I Think we can eating meat as long as it is not for feeding kam krod lob moh and hunkar.

Nanak says ANY ACT influenced by kar khrod lob moh and hunkar are prohibited for a true diciple of satguru. I ask even though you are a vegitarian, do you truley have a divine diet? Is your act of feeding yourself in service of Waheguru or in Service of the 5 passions?

Is it really hard to believe that a Human may eat meat if the eating is not influenced by the 5 demons/passions? If the act of eating is not feuled by the 5 passions but by the rememberence of god then it must be O.K.

Satnaam.
Waheguru

HEY BAL HI.....
THE CASTE SYSTEM IS PRESENT IN THE SIKH COMMUNITY BUT NOT IN THE SIKH SCRIPTURES. LIKE YOU SAID WE ARE SURROUNDED BY HINDUS AND SO CHANCES ARE THAT SIKHISM MAY ONE DAY BE SUBMERGED BACK INTO HINDUISM BUT THE SITUATION CAN BE ADDRESSED IF WE START TO LEARN ABOUT WHAT WE ARE AND WHERE WE SHOULD BE GOING, THERE IS PLENTY OUTLETS AVAILABLE IF WE REALLY WANT ASSISTANCE. THE PROBLEM LIES WITH US INDIVIDUALS, SIKHISM IS A RELIGION THAT DEMANDS 110% ATTENTION IF WE ARE TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT, THE TIME HAS COME WHERE WE AS NEW GENERATION SIKHS MUST LEARN ABOUT OUR RICH HERITAGE. WE ARE LUCKY TO BE BORN AS SIKHS AND WE MUST NOT WASTE THAT GOD GIVEN OPPORTUNITY. THERE IS ALOT TO LEARN, WE CANNOT SIMPLY BE SIKHS COS WE GO TO THE GURDWARA ON A SUNDAY BECAUSE THAT IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF IT. WE MUST ALL LOOK DEEP WITHIN OURSELVES AND ESTABLISH WHETHER WE REALLY ARE SIKHS BECAUSE CONSIDERING A SIKH IS ONE WHO IS BAPTISED AND ONE WHO LIVES TO THE REHAT, WE ARE VERY SMALL IN NUMBERS AND THE TIME HAS COME WHERE WE MUST REVITALISE SIKHISM IN IT'S PRIMEST FORM. WE ARE OPEN TO CHOICE NO ONE IS FORCING US TO BE SIKH BUT IF WE SEE OURSELF AS SIKH WE MUST MAKE SURE WE ARE LIVING A LIFE OF A SIKH AND NOT A PUNJABI WITH A HANGOVER.

PS-IN SIKHISM MEAT EATING IS PROHIBITED.

GOOD LUCK
WISH YOU WELL

I am not sure it is that important - the eating of meat or not. Sikhism is a relatively young religion and that goes some way toward explaining why I don't eat beef. My parents brought me up that way & they were brought up that way. Due in most part to the fact that Sikhs live in a predominantly Hindu culture (India) & have assimilated and/or respect much of their culture. Unlike most other religions Sikhism teaches tolerance in fact acceptance of other religions. But I don't think eating or not eating meat is an important issue in Sikhism. I believe the defining of what is 'pure' enough to be consumed is a personal choice. Problems you should address are topics like the caste system. Does anybody know why this exists in Sikhism?

I personally believe wheather you eat meat or not, depends on your family up brining. I know many sikhs who eat meat but do not cut there hair. i personally do cut my hair but don't eat meat. I was just brought up that way, there was never any meat in my family's meals, I think it dependes on your family background, andlike everything else in India, it might have to do with a person's caste as well. I always thought it was a sin to eat meat in Sikh relgion, but I guess that's not true either, still I will not meat ever. I just feel it's morally worng, and hey... these days everyone's going vegterian anyways.beacus it is a healthy lifestyle. thanks. bye.

Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Thanks for your views - Hiphopper

What I actually meant was that there are so many real issues which need our immediate attention, rather than us wasting our precious time on such topics ie.
Whether we should eat meat or not?
How many banis do we need to recite?
Why can't we have table and chairs in our langar?
Such topics are total waste of time as discussions on these topics will lead you no where? What I would like to request you all is have discussions and debates on topics ie.
What is happen to our younger generation?
Why aren't parents teaching their children the real meaning of Sikhism?
Why don't we compare our self to Sahibzada Zorawar Singh and Sahibzada Fateh Singh? If they can do what they did at that tender age what's wrong with us?
Why can't we follow them? They never asked any questions when Mata Gujri Ji told them about the ideals set by our Guru's. They simply replied that -They would stand by their faith and follow in the foot steps of their illustrious father (Guru Gobind Singh Ji).They proved this as well by sacrificing their precious lives for us.
Yes - Us - we are so thankless people that we have totally forgotten the principles and are simply falling into the stupid and silly practices of so many pakhandi saints / sants / mahatma's etc etc. It's a big SHAME on us. Therefore being a concerned Sikh I would like to spread what I learn from my elders and above all our Almighty Waheguru. Like I said earlier simply do this - Have faith and leave everything at the hands of our Almighty Father you will see that all your dreams will come true. ie.
Maan Taan Bechey Satguru Ke paas -
Don't simply read it - believe in it and follow it by being honest to yourself.
Nowadays just for some money, fashion and culture we are running miles away from our father Almighty Waheguru. WHY? Have a debate on these topics this will be classed as a healthy debate as this help us in finding out the real causes effecting our community.
Till next time take care.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Khalsa Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji ki Fathey

You said
>>...at the end of the day these issues are not healthy for the sikh community at large...<<

I think that these sort of things should be discussed so that we can purge the faith of Guru Nanak of irrelevent ritual and unenlightened practices, hence being very healthy for Sikhi.

Satnam
Waheguru

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Everyone
Well Rav and all of you who are having a debate on this issue, I would like to discuss few things with you guys. Yes I know it is very hard for the younger generation to understand certain practices or restrictions imposed as an answer is always expected to prove (this is what we have all become) We don't accept anything - without a proof. How about answering few questions - Do we know why we are here on this world? Where have we all come from? (I wonder) and above all who we really are? Are you really who you think you are? I don't think so. Somebody had earlier on tried to explain through gurbani and other ways to answer the question raised. Well my answer once again is - I have got no time to waste on issues like these because end of the day these issues are not healthy for the sikh community at large. If you all feel strongly about the Sikh Community then my request to you guys is please understand - believe what you want to believe but stop using our guru's name in vain - as we don't know the facts and we weren't there to prove what our guru's or warriors did. Even some amritdhari sikhs are so mixed up with this hinduisim and other sects that when we see them in real life - we feel so ashamed as they are bringing bad name to the real people. I give you an example - when you join an army - you are expected to follow orders of the relevant officers and you stay within your position. At no cost you can question an Army Officer. This is real. YET - When we become sikh (khalsa) you join the Akalpurkh De Fauj - it's so strange you are in the army of King of Kings (Lord Waheguru) and I don't know how some of us even dare to question - what our guru's did. This is beyond my understanding. For god sake if you really want to learn something go and clean your mind and soul and then leave everything in waheguru's hand ie. Maan Tan Bechey Satguru Ke Paas -
Have you ever bothered and questioned your parents - why they had you as a son or a daughter? or Why they do what they do? Yes the answer to this is correct and that is - THERE IS NO RIGHT OR A WRONG ANSWER IT SIMPLY IS YOU WILL BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THESE EXPLANATIONS THEN WHY CAN'T YOU SIMPLY ACCEPT THE FACTS. Some of us who have already decided to eat or not to eat will stick to our own beliefs. If you have already decided not accept that eating meat is not allowed as a priority in sikh faith then what's the point. Anybody who wants a copy of Sikh Rehat Maryada you can send me an email. I PRAY TO MY ALMIGHTY WAHEGURU THAT HE SHOWERS HIS BLESSINGS UPON YOU ALL.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

i must say that this forum is better than any other i have read. its good for youth to learn this way but how do we know the truth with so many conflicting views. i myself envy those who know so much and are able to argue their points. i also think that belief in a religion is not justified without questioning it to know it on a deeper level , instead of just believing everything that is preached.

Miss Kaur

It seams like you would rather kill plants, and chop them up into sabji. Don't you value thier life?? Yes they are alive!!!!! The light of God (naam) is as strong in them as it is in you. Please enlighten yourself.

You do not speak for true Sikhs. Nanak does not forbid eating meat. Read his bani!

It is well documented that Guru Govind Singh and Guru Har Govind were very skilled hunters and the their armies used to eat meat. So how can you claim to be a Sikh of the Guru if youre beliefs and practices are different then the Sat Gurus. Please read the bani and realize what is true.

Please read the Janam Sakhis of the Sikh Gurus and you will read of instances of the Guru's eating meat. There are 2 Janam saki of Guru Nanak, 1 written by baba Mardana and another by Baba Balla. Please read them. I'm sure Mardhana and Balla would not make up fake stories for the Janam Sakis. There intent was to truthfully represent Nanaks life.

If you don't believe me read the SIKH REYAT MIRYADA. It clearly states that "Sikhs should not eat HALAL(killed by ritual sacrifice) meat"!! If your view was right it would say "sikhs should not eat meat."
What has happened is that Hindhu groups like the RSS have influenced the common sikh people and your views reflect hindhuism not sikhi. Please live the way Sikh Guru's Did.

Thvaanoo Guru Nanak kirpa kar kay sach dikhavay..

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fathey

all i would like to say is that none of the sikh gurus ate meat because we do not believe in tortuein
animals like he bloody muslims do (stupid haalal meat)

Well then Sunny Singh looks it looks like someone is trying to make you look bad. Who ever it is will pay in the court of the lord. Nobody slanders the Saints of God and lives a fruitfull life.

Satnam

That last posting was not me, I am the original Sunny Singh.

How can we response to Sunny Singh offensive comments?

It could be that Sunny Singh is actually a vegetarian pretending to be a meat eater who is disgracing the Great Guru Nanak.

Us Sikhs who have a natural diet (non-vegetarian) respect and love the saint Guru Nanak, unlike this moron Sunny Singh.

This idiot, Sunny Singh, should go and read the writings of Guru Nanak before he makes derogatory remarks.

Nanak was an idiot. Jats have eaten meat for centuries. Jats should not be corrupted by fake religous practices.

Satnam
Khalistani,good job in showing how vegitarianism doesn't elevate ones spirituality. Nanak's words were clear to the Bhramins saying, and I paraphrase, something to the effect of "If you think that by not eating meat you are a true renunciate then bhramin you should leave drinking water altogether becuase Life is mostly water."

And to all of those who are claiming vegitarianism is divine have you ever read the shabad where the Guru is describing how the sugar cane is killed and made into Gur describing its pain? I'm sorry i don't have the exact shabad handy.

We are sikh. We know that everything is God. And God is everything. So then how can we say that certain types of life are better than others and that they should not be consumed? What is the difference between plants and animal? The light of god is equal in both. To the gurmukh they both have the same value and he/she loves them as he loves god for he see's the Naam eminating from all...

Any act done to feed our 5 demons. Desire, Anger, Emotional Attachment, Greed, Ego, are evil. Those who claim to be holy because of thier vegitarian diet and go home after ahard day of work...with Maki di Roti and Sag with huge lumps of butter waiting are deciving themselves. Eating that food is even evil because of the lust and desire involved for the food unless you are enlightend and beyond the 5 vices.

So those of you who claim to have a holy diet...think nex time when you are lusting over your food that it is evil. Unless of course your love for Waheguru supercedes your love for the food then you can say that truely you have a pure diet.

Sikhs don't kill Gods creatures..Did the Guru's not hunt???

What is going on here is that Hindhu beliefs have polluted True religion...

The reason we don't eat halal meat is a philosophical one. Meat is Halal because the Musalman Sacrifices the animal to God. Sikhs know that we can't sacrifice anything to god because Waheguru already is the owner of the creation. How can you sacrifice that which is already a sacrifice. The whole concept of sacrifice to God does not make sense and that is why the Guru's forbade it..


Waheguru ji Ka Khalisa
Waheguru ji ki Fathey!!

Satnam
Khalistani,good job in showing how vegitarianism doesn't elevate ones spirituality. Nanak's words were clear to the Bhramins saying, and I paraphrase, something to the effect of "If you think that by not eating meat you are a true renunciate then bhramin you should leave drinking water altogether becuase Life is mostly water."

And to all of those who are claiming vegitarianism is divine have you ever read the shabad where the Guru is describing how the sugar cane is killed and made into Gur describing its pain? I'm sorry i don't have the exact shabad handy.

We are sikh. We know that everything is God. And God is everything. So then how can we say that certain types of life are better than others and that they should not be consumed? What is the difference between plants and animal? The light of god is equal in both. To the gurmukh they both have the same value and he/she loves them as he loves god for he see's the Naam eminating from all...

Any act done to feed our 5 demons. Desire, Anger, Emotional Attachment, Greed, Ego, are evil. Those who claim to be holy because of thier vegitarian diet and go home after ahard day of work...with Maki di Roti and Sag with huge lumps of butter waiting are deciving themselves. Eating that food is even evil because of the lust and desire involved for the food unless you are enlightend and beyond the 5 vices.

So those of you who claim to have a holy diet...think nex time when you are lusting over your food that it is evil. Unless of course your love for Waheguru supercedes your love for the food then you can say that truely you have a pure diet.

Sikhs don't kill Gods creatures..Did the Guru's not hunt???

What is going on here is that Hindhu beliefs have polluted True religion...

The reason we don't eat halal meat is a philosophical one. Meat is Halal because the Musalman Sacrifices the animal to God. Sikhs know that we can't sacrifice anything to god because Waheguru already is the owner of the creation. How can you sacrifice that which is already a sacrifice. The whole concept of sacrifice to God does not make sense and that is why the Guru's forbade it..


Waheguru ji Ka Khalisa
Waheguru ji ki Fathey!!

You Sikh's are becoming Hinduised

Now you believe in not eating meat

you believe in castes
you believe in tantric yoga
you believe in hindu gods
you believe in going to the gurdwara during the new moon

Every day you lot are becoming hinduised.

All the Guru's were in the form of Guru Nanak

Guru Nanak eat meat read the 1289-1290 passage for your self.

The hymn is about vegetarianism, work it out for your self, don't beleive anyone else interpretation.


There was question raised about a slok by Bhagat Kabeer Ji, specifically slok number 233 on page 1377 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The slok states "Kabeer Bhaang Maachly Sura Paan, Jo Jo Pranee Khaey. Teerath Barat Name Kiaae Te, Sabe Rasatal Jaey.||233|| This is translated as "Kabeer, those mortals who
consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. || 233 ||

The question about whether this slok by Bhagat Kabeer Ji is telling us not to eat meat is a very common misperception. When examining any slok or shabaad, it is important to look at it in the context of the entire Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Arjan Dev Ji went through a painstaking endeavor to include other Banis that were at the same wavelength with the thinking of the Gurus. There is no Bani which is more correct than another and they are all equally as valid. Since the Guru Granth Sahib is our definitive Guru, it takes clear stands
on all issues that are addressed and all the ideas that are presented in the Guru Granth Sahib are consistent throughout. When we find ourselves confronted with a Shabaad that may be somewhat ambiguous, it is of course important to study it in-depth to understand its true meaning but we should also look at other instances where similar themes more clearly articulated.

Before examining the slok by Bhagat Kabeer Ji, it is important to point out a shabaad by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on the meat issue. The shabaad is on page 1289 of the Guru Granth Sahib and states "Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jhagrae, Gian, Dhian Nahie Janae. Kaun Maas, Kaun Saag Kahavae, Kis Mae Pap Samanae." It is translated as "Fools argue about meat and flesh but they know nothing about spiritual wisdom or meditation. What is meat? What is green vegetables? What
leads to sin?" Guru Nanak Dev Ji very definitively addresses the meat issue in this shabaad. It is a useless issue to ague about and our fate certainly will not be determined by what we eat.

Given Guru Nanak Dev Ji's above statement, the slok in question
by Bhagat Kabeer Ji seems quite perplexing. Professor Sahib Singh has
addressed the slok in question by Bhagat Kabeer Ji quite beautifully in his "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Darpan" and I'll attempt to summarize
his analysis as best as is possible for me.

When looking at Sloks by Bhagat Kabeer Ji, it is necessary to study them in certain groups because a set of sloks conveys a particular theme when they are examined together. This is akin to reading all of the lines in a shabaad to understand its meaning rather than picking one line from a shabaad and studying it in isolation. We can derive all kinds of meanings by picking lines at random from anywhere. Also, when studying Gurbani, we should study shabaads by
making ourselves aware of the context in which they appear as well as any imagery or cultural expressions that are utilized to make a point.

Professor Sahib Singh states that in order to understand the true meaning of the slok in question, we need to look at sloks 228 to 236 as group because a new thought is being discussed starting with Slok 228. There is a rough English translation of these sloks below but I encourage everyone to read the original Gurmukhi for a better feel.

Kabeer, the Lord is the tree, and disillusionment with the world is the fruit. The Holy man, who has abandoned useless arguments, is the shade of the tree. || 228 || Kabeer, plant the seeds of such a plant, which shall bear fruit throughout the twelve months, with cooling shade and abundant fruit, upon which birds joyously play. || 229 || Kabeer, the Great Giver is the tree, which blesses all with the fruit of compassion. When the birds migrate to other lands, O Tree, you bear the fruits. || 230 || Kabeer, the mortal finds the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, if he has such destiny written
upon his forehead. He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. || 231 || Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that, whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. || 232 || Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. || 233 || Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart. I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not
let anyone else know. || 234 || Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord. Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. || 235 || Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul. I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. || 236 ||

The point made in the sloks is that in the world today people are engaged in argumentation and fighting and are suffering spiritually. The Name of the lord is the beautiful tree. Those good fortuned souls who have forsaken this fighting are the shade of the tree. In the company of these individuals, the sangat of the devotees, one is saved from getting burned (one attains the protection of the shade).

But there is an interesting practice in play. People wake up early and are present in the temple, they hold fasts, and endure many other austerities but they also keep themselves engrossed in vices (The five vices in the Sikh context - Kaam, Krodh, Lobh. Moh, Hankaar). Kabeer Ji at one point states that by sitting in the company of the saints does not equate to sitting down and chanting "Ram Ram." All this and any pilgrimages that you undertake and other "holy" activities are for naught if one is trapped by the vices.

In the slok prior to 233, Kabeer Ji states "It is worthwile to
speak and spend time with the saints." In slok 233 he is stating, that
if one, who after speaking with the saints, goes consumes marijuana and
alcohol, the spritual happiness that one attained by spending time in the company of the hopy is of no use.

We should not take away from "Bhang Machly atae Suraa" that Kabeer Ji is only stopping us from Eating Marijuana or drinking alcohol but is also forsaking all other intoxicants. Similarly, we should also not assume that Kabeer ji is telling us not to eat Meat or Fish. We must read all the sloks together. The point being made is that to spend time in the company of the holy or to go on pilgrimages, etc. and still fall to the vices (the five vices) is wrong and won't get us anywhere. The reason that the word Machy (fish) is used is because those that indulge themselves in Kaam (Lust) usually used to and
probably still engage in lustful activities after eating meat and drinking liquor. The meat of fish (Machly) was known for bringing forth lustful desires and this is the reason Bhagat Kabir Jee uses the phrase "Bhang Machy atae Suraa." Its not to be confused as saying that you shouldn't eat fish.

I hope that clarifies the question.

No where does any Bani of Bhagat Kabeer Ji in the Guru Granth Sahib or any other Bani in the Guru Granth Sahib reject eating meat. I have had a great many conversations with people in which they generally pick one line out of context from some shabaad to declare that Sikhism propagates. I personally have nothing against Vegetarianism but it does pain me a bit to see adopting an all-vegetable diet based on Sikh ideology. It's a personal decision
that I do not think can be grounded on Sikh theology. In fact, Guru Nank
Dev Ji states that it is a waste of time to even discuss this topic in spiritual terms. In short, Sikhism does not say anything on the practice of eating vegetables elevating one to a higher spiritual status.

I do always make a request to all vegetarians that given the situation in Punjab today and the assimilation we face by the Sangh Parvar and the RSS, we should all at least eat beef. This single practice of eating Beef will cause the insidious assimilation of Sikhism into Hinduism to cease instantaneously and they will resort to overt attempts to kill Sikhs, instead of destroying the very ideology of Sikhism from the inside out, as is occuring today.


How can you have Khalistan when you have the mind of a Hindu!

i want punjabi music

A MESSAGE FOR THE SADISTIC BASTARD - ADDRESS TAN CHAHEDA SEE KYON KE MEIN AAKEY TUHADI MAA CHODHNEE SEE

OKEY KUTEYA - MR. ANNONYMOUSS

TERA PEO - TUN AAPNEAN SISTERS NUN TAN TAN SAAMB LA PEHLA. TATEYAN CHE DAM CHAHEDA HARAMDEYA PILLEYA.

RAJ KAREGA KHALSA

Khalsa, you want sidi's address so you can send your sisters round for a bit of real PUNJABI Lora.
lol

Khalsa, you want sidi's address so you can send your sisters round for a bit of real PUNJABI Lora.
lol

BANDA BHAHDUR ATE MEAT WHEN HE WAS SURROUNDED BY MUGHALS BECOZ HE WAS FORCED TO

A MESSAGE FROM KHALSA

FOR GHAURI AND SIDDIQI

DO ME A FAVOUR AND GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS.

RAJ KAREGA KHALSA.

THIS IS FOR YOU ALL SAD INDIVIDUALS - WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION WHAT OUR GURUS DID OR NOT. CAN'T YOU JUST KEEP YOU INTELLIGENCE TO YOUR SELF AND BEFORE ASKING STUPID QUESTIONS ASK YOURSELF
WHO YOU REALLY ARE?
WHERE HAVE YOU ACTUALLY COME FROM?
AND FINALLY WHERE YOU WILL ALL GO?
IF ANY OF YOU HAVE A TIME TO WASTE THEN DO SO IN THE RIGHT FORMAT RATHER THAN PARTICIPATING IN THESE STUPID DEBATES / TALKS. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS - YOU WILL BELIEVE WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE. REST ALL IS JUST A COVER UP OF YOUR ACTIONS. SO THEREFORE DO SIKH COMMUNITY A FAVOUR AND SHUT YOUR TRAP AND STOP MISLEADING THE COMING GENERATION. PEOPLE LIKE YOU ALL ARE BIGGEST SETBACK TO OUR COMMUNITY - SO ALL OF YOU GET A LIFE.

Sikh people is stupid religion you know.They were taken from hindu and muslim sufi element.Stupid are they.


Zindagi pakistan

DONT EAT MEAT
YOU COME FROM HINDU CULTURE
AT LEAST MIND COW MEAT

hi
i am looking for grils hows strats tofriend ship with me i am a gril boys are not allowd

"Bulleya Kha Kabab
Teh pi sharab"

unless you see god in everything or feel the negative effects of eating meat... then your abstaining from meat is a byproduct of your previous karam and your own choice.

simple as that.

the guru's were people. they had their connection to god and considered themselves nothing. a guru is only a guru when he/she can bring one to their own level.

and a student is similar. guru nanak's guru was god
"apramparam parbarahm parmeswar"

so my point is...stop worrying about what is right and
wrong. get in touch with god and you will know what the guru wants...simple?

Hey Taj,

Guru Nanak Dev Ji, in this shabad, seems to have criticized pandits for disgracing the flesh even though they are made of flesh. What he is saying is that these people (pandits) knew nothing about the meditation and yet they were worried about the flesh around them making them impure. In other words, it really doesn't matter what you abstain from, you will not be purified unless you meditate (naam japna) and without having met a Sat guru, you can not attain God.

However it doesn't necessarily mean that he said it's OK to eat meat.

Bhagat Kabir also criticized pandits in a shabad for purifying the area around them while eating. I don't remember how exactly it was. But, it said something like: why are you worried so much about purifying the dining area when everything you use to cook and to eat and everything else in your body and around you is impure?

Bhagats have tried to show respect for everything lively and lifeless. For example, Farid Sahib said: maati ka kya tolna, maati seyo na koye…jeevdiyan paira tale….moya upper hoye….

Then he refers to gods cooking meat. Which gods is he referring to? Some Hindu gods? He also refers to something in Koran and Bible. But, he further says that if pandits think that Muslims, Christians or any non-vegetarian go to hell, then pandits should not accept any gifts from them. Otherwise they are going to hell as well. Please read page 1290.

http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1290.html

So, he really isn't saying it's OK to eat meat. Instead he is saying to the pandits that giving up meat won't do much unless you meditate and if you believe that all the non-vegetarians are going to hell then by accepting gifts from them, you are going to hell as well.

Also, when it comes down to Gurus hunting, I heard a story where a Mona Sikh goes to see Guru Gobind Singh Ji and he thought Guru was cruel because he used to hunt. But, later on, he learnt that Guru was actually immortalizing the animals. But, we human don't have that divine power to immortalize anything. Therefore, it really doesn't make any sense for us to kill or torture anything. Maybe it would be OK to eat something if it died due to natural causes. But, I am not convinced that killing or having something killed just for the purpose of eating is OK.

OK, people who believe it's OK to eat meat or kill animals just to eat, tell me something. Do you think if it was legal to kill human, you would kill humans to eat as well? If not, why not? If yes, I will have something more coming up.

Bugaboo,

Believe me if anything Sandeep Singh Brar has misinterpreted the quote from Bhai Mardana. All he is saying is that the spiritual wisdom, Praise of God and Fear of God are true foods for thought and the true name should be the only support for a human being. Maybe we can allow ourselves to skip molasses, bread, or meat, but, not the spiritual wisdom, Praise of God and Fear of God.

Thanks

Kaur pehnji,

Bhai Mardana has put a quote in the GGS for the consumption of flesh.Sandeep Singh Brar has not put up what he "thinks" but what is actually written in the GGS.Read the links he's provided.There's one on Guru Nanak's bani,and there's another "OK-ing" it to eat meat by providing quotes from GGS.

Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singhi hunted and ate meat.Historical evidence is well provided on that web page.

THE TRAVELS OF GURU NANAK

RETURN FROM SANGLADEEP:

Passing through Pehwa, he reached Kurukshetra, a place where the famous battle of Mahabharat was fought between the Kauravs and the Pandavs. It was an occasion of solar eclipse when the Guru visited Kurukshetra. Thousands of people including a large number of Brahmans and saints had gathered there. Hindus consider it sacred to go to Kurukshetra at the time of solar eclipse, bathe in the holy tank and give alms to Brahman priests. According to Hindu belief, solar eclipse occurs when sun, the god, is harassed by its enemies, the demons. None is required to eat anything during the eclipse.

The Guru went there to draw attention of the erring Hindu community towards the fact that eclipse was nothing but only a natural phenomenon. The Guru took his seat near the sacred tank and when the sun was eclipsed he began to cook deer which was presented to him by Prince Rai Singh. A big crowd gathered around the Guru, for it was a sacrilege to cook meat. The Brahmans led by Nanu besieged the Guru and were ready to club him to death. The Guru stood up and spoke. His words worked like a magic and the crowd stood spell-bound. The Guru uttered the following two Sabads on this occasion:

"Man is first conceived in flesh, he dwelleth in flesh,
When he quickeneth, he obtaineth a mouth of flesh; his bone,
skin, and body are made of flesh.
When he is taken out of the womb, he seizeth teats of flesh.
His mouth is of flesh, his tongue is of flesh, his breath is
in flesh.
When he groweth up he marrieth, and bringeth flesh home
with him.
Flesh is produced from flesh; all man's relations are made
from flesh. By meeting the true Guru and obeying God's order,
everybody shall go right.
If thou suppose that man shall be saved by himself, he shall
not: Nanak, it is idle to say so." (Var Malar ki- Slok Mohalla 1- 25.1, p-1289)

The Guru continued:

"Fools wrangle about flesh (meat), but know not divine
knowledge or meditation on God.
They know not what is meat, or what is vegetable, or in what
sin consisteth.
It was the custom of the gods to kill rhinoceroses, roast
them and feast.
They who forswear flesh and hold their noses when near it,
devour men at night.
They make pretenses to the world, but they know not divine
knowledge or meditation on God.
Nanak, why talk to a fool? He cannot reply or understand
what is said to him.
He who acteth blindly is blind; he hath no mental eyes.
Ye were produced from the blood of your parents, yet ye eat
not fish or meat.
When man and woman meet at night and cohabit,
A foetus is conceived from flesh; we are vessels of flesh.
O Brahman, thou knowest not divine knowledge or
meditation on God, yet thou callest thyself clever.
Thou considereth the flesh that cometh from abroad bad,
O my Lord, and the flesh of thine own home good.
All animals have sprung from flesh, and the soul taketh its
abode in flesh.
They whose Guru is blind, eat things that ought not to be
eaten, and abstain from what ought to be eaten.
In flesh we are conceived, from flesh we are born; we are
vessels of flesh.
O Brahman, thou knowest not divine knowledge or
meditation on God, yet thou callest thyself clever.
Meat is allowed in the Purans, meat is allowed in the books
of Musalmans, meat hath been used in the four ages.
Meat adorneth sacrifice and marriage functions; meat hath
always been associated with them.
Women, men, kings, and emperors spring from flesh.
If they appear to you to be going to hell, then accept not
their offerings.
See how wrong it would be that givers should go to hell and
receivers to heaven.
Thou understandest not thyself, yet thou instructest others;
O Pandit, thou art very wise!
O Pandit, thou knowest not from what flesh hath sprung.
Corn, sugar-cane, and cotton are produced from water;
from water the three worlds are deemed to have sprung.
Water saith,'I am good in many ways'; many are the
modifications of water.
If thou abandon the relish of such things, thou shalt be
superhuman, saith Nanak deliberately." (Ibid, 25-2, p-1289)

Hari_the_American_born_Malayalee

Can you give me the quote that says that the Guru Ji ate meat from the Guru Granth Sahib?

Tarun

Who the hell is Sandeep Singh Brar, I can make a home page and put anything I want.

According to that link,there's a long bani by Guru Nanak on the meat eating topic and also there are quotes by Bhai Mardana in the GGS which are for sikhs eating meat.

Tarun,

No I was actually talking about the link.

Kaur:

I read that Nanak-ji did in fact eat some land animal (like a goat/sheep) in broad view of some bahmans. the bahmans got irritated, and he justified that, basically, "what comes *out* of the mouth (speach) is more important than what one puts *in* the mouth (food)".

one of my sardarji friends told me that in Sikhism that they can eat anything they want - provided the animal had a quick death (i.e. - it can't be hallaal).

Jat Panjabi,

Kidhaan?She was saying "some people here are saying the Gurus ate meat" blah blah blah and "tell me where it says so" ... so I just provided a link.

Tarun.

JP,
ARe you talking about the link or what kaur is saying?

Tarun.

Hey Tarun,

That appears to be someone's personal opinion. It doesn't have any reference to any Gurus or anything.

KAUR,

Go to http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

Tarun.

HELLO ALL
FIRST, NONE OF THE GURUS ATE MEAT!!!!!!!
AND NO WHERE IN THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI, SAYS ITS OK TO EAT MEAT. I READ SOME PEOPLE SAYING THAT THE GRANTHIS EAT MEAT, THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHIT....THESE GRANTHIS AREN'T SIKHS....THEY ARE THE ONES WHO RUIN IT FOR THE TRUE GRANTHIS. THESE ARE THE FAKE GRANTHIS!!! SOME PEOPLE HERE ARE SAYING THAT SOME GURUS ATE MEAT, SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS THEY DID SO. PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING ALL THESE FALSE THINGS I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR GETTING YOUR INFORMATION, BUT YOU GUYS SHOULD GO THE GURUDAWARA, OR ASK SOMEONE, OR READ THE BANI BEFORE OPENING THEIR BIG MOUTHS, AND START ACCUSING THE GURUS OF ANYTHING. AND IF THE GURUS WERE FROM HINDU FAMILIES WHY DID THEY CALL THEMSELVES SIKHS?????? HELLO?????? THINK PEOPLE!!!!!!I WONDER IF SOME OF YOU HAVE MIND OF YOUR!!!!!

u lahori,u are jack ass.Why u call sikh people like that.You doesn't even know them. It's batter for u to stay out from there business sikh and hindu people life.And pakistan is murda var.
And ur are one of that jackass.
Come here and talk shit about sikh
ur pakistan is shit,they are poor.First of all no women well like to be ur rukhals..They are batter then pakistani womens.And why the way how much money
do we have to pay to buy ur rukhal.I could pay her money,Bring her ok
please ask her.I will keep her as rukhals

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!How stupid of me.This page has nothing to rebutt against.

Taj,

You missed a thread !

Tarun

what the hell u pakistani,,,,,,in the first line,,,,as all u sikhs can read that he is swearing.....man now actually writing all those things......(Ghauri)......u can tell how u pakistanis are,,,,,,u guys can just swear thats it....nothing else,,,,,and can just fight for nothing......

please someone help these pakistani's,,,,,,who can just swear.....

i am a lahori. i hate both you judawallas stinking
sikks and hindoos. we will have a united punjab under
musharaff. you bast a ra ds sikks and dirty hindoos
will again become our naukkars. your women will be our rakhels. that day is not far.
zab tak zameen aasman rahega pakistan
tera naam rahega
pakistan zindabad

cheers sarbjit

pakistan zindabad. all sikks join us liberate kashmir
and khalistan jab tak aasman raheega
pakistan ter naam rahega

Gurdeep Singh,
Hi.You left a whole load of web addresses on the sikh and sikhia thread.One of them www.sikhs.org says that eating meat is acceptable in sikhi. You say it is wrong.Would you care to comment?

Tarun.

hi goggi, it's JATinder.

Take care

Dear jat punjabi ji what is your real name ?. Obviously you're a proud brave jatt.

Jat Punjabi, you and I know if we want to justify our diet, we can come up with a 101 reasons to do so. Jhutka, slayed upside down, well washed death, sliced vertically, slice horizontally, etc. Whatever the means, the end, ends up, on your plate.

Oops, let me rephrase it. So, are we saying that there is no religious restriction to kill something, as long as it's jhatka?

So, are we saying that there is no religious restriction to kill something, halal or jhatka? I always believed that Sikhism disallows eating meat unless you have no other choice. I was shocked to hear from a garanthi that a lot of garanthis eat meat.

Someone please explain to me why Guru Gobind forbid cutting body hair.

Sat Shiri Akaal to all ~

This topic always creeps up in my university's sikh society meetings.

If you want to eat meat,eat it.As Harkirat's gyani says, "bas,halal nahi hona chaida".

I eat meat.

Bye,
Am.

Yes Ill register under lacto-vegetarian too.Cheers.

Hi folks, I thought I’d add a few cents on diets.

Vegan: Consuming no animals or animal products. No milk, cheese, butter, etc. These people usually have difficulty with nutrition.

Lacto-vegetarian: No animals, but allowed animal products like milk, cheese, butter, and honey.

Lacto-ovo vegetarian: No animals, but animal products and eggs.

Vegetarian: Eggs, fish, animal products, but not meat.

I guess I’m a Lacto-vegetarian.

My understanding of the term 'vegan' is strictly generic and I did not envisage the prohibition of milk.I quote,'vegan,one who does not eat animals or animal products'(Oxford).Are you kidding,I love milk,roti nal mein dudh peena rajkey!A fresh onion too!So i apologize.

If its' worth anything I am an environmentalist too.I recycle all my rubbish and materials,like paper,tins,cans,card,rags etc.People treat me like Im weird or something.Our local borough council,like City Hall in NY,collects my bundle every week.I trust the good old legs and a bike for short journeys,but what can I do for emergencies and long distances?Unleaded petrol/gas!My mum is pretty fed up with me over insisting on saving energy and recycling just about everything in the house th- at - is recycleable!Greenpeace wanted me to donate and be active on their behalf but I was pretty tied up,being in a capitalist society and all.Im looking into other ways too so I feel good about doing my bit.Adios!

Vegan = vegetarian who doesn't eat fish or eggs or animal fat (Along with being veggie)

Radhasoamis are vegans.

What is a Vegan? Can someone please provide a detailed explaination?

Sat Sri Akaal to everyone.

Please visit http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

There they say the Gurus ate meat.
There are quotes from the Guru Granth Sahib there as well.

What do you think ?

Harkirat Singh

Hi Taj, you may be pleased to know that I am a vegetarian as well, but not a vegan, which seems to me to be an intensely difficult task; and I commend you for it. How can you live without milk though?

My main point is that we must eat living beings in order to exist in this creation. Life exists upon life and without consuming life we will die. We do have the reasoning and ability to choose the life that we ingest, and people do it as they see fit. My main argument is that even a vegetable has life and the juicy parts of vegetables and fruits are called meat. Thus, all humans eat meat!

Now granted plants are amongst the simplest life forms and the karmas associated with killing them are quite small compared to that of a cow. But we must kill in order to function here as I mentioned before. I believe the quote is taken from some rehat in which there is a taboo put on meats, eggs, etc, implying that eating vegetable is karmaless. But no action in this creation is karmaless. Eating vegetables is a way to limit karmic loads though. So it can be said from a spiritual perspective that eating vegetables is less bad that eating meat.

My personal belief on vegetarianism is based on something I read. We have all been to a graveyard or cemetery. And we feel strange or feel fearful about it. But do we feel any fear about the graveyard we are creating in our bodies by ingesting the dead bodies of animals daily?

Sorry,my mistake,correction of typing error-I mean shall we just be stupid and not eat anything then.

Cant you even see the difference between a bloody plant and an animal?Check up persistent vegetative state,th- at - is enough justification for me.Or shall we just be stupid and not anything then.If so,it rings true for whoever eat a flaming burger with a cows ass in it.If anyone is curious I am a vegan,been so since I was 5.

Sunny

I think this meat discussion is kinda useless. Because If you look at the world in some places you can't survive without eating meat. Well once one of my friends and I were talking about fishing and then talks turned to Tuna and how sometimes small dolphins could be caught with tuna and processes. I said how can people eat dolphins they are such wonderful creatures. Well my friend said "I think onions are cute then why do you eat them".

I guess everybody have their eating habits sometime you need to hunt things like deers because of overpopulation which could lead to complete population crash.

Gurdeep, hi, you wrote: "Guru Saheb exhorts man not to kill God's creatures. He says that those who kill living beings commit murder, They are sinners who keep committing sins.”

Aren’t plants also living beings? Thus, we are all sinners according to the above.

I read a book recently in which it made reference to the Guru's message with regard to meat....

"Guru Saheb exhorts man not to kill God's creatures. He says that those who kill living beings commit murder, They are sinners who keep committing sins. Causing violence to God's creatures or killing them is sin, Countless people with dirty minds eat dirt, that is egg and the flesh of slaughtered animals. In Gurbaanee it is written that those who kill animals or God's beings will be punished in the court of God.

Humans have a choice: they can grow vegetables, fruits, and grains and SURVIVE on vegetarian food therefore they need not meat to survive!"

This is absolutely true, those Sikhs who take Amrit yet undercover eat meat and drink shraab should be brought b4 the Gurdwara and ridiculed. If Guru Ji wanted us to eat meat and consume alcohol, they would have said it in the GGS.

To eat meat is wrong and sinful especially for Sikhs.
If you are a Sikh and you eat meat YOU CANNOT BE A SIKH.

WJKK
WJKF

Taj, very good! Now, please explain the sword!

Sunny Singh,I have read something to similar effect on account of Khushwant Singh.I think it is either 'My Bleeding Punjab' in the beginning chapters somewhere or 'The Sikhs'.I do not have a copy but I am sure I picked up this submission from him.And you said so yourself on the Intercaste Marriages thread;I noticed it when going through the archives to read the masses of info. posted.

'By Sunny Singh on Monday, January 10, 2000 - 11:39 am:
Pajhi
I believe in our Ardas it says, "Sikha tha man neema mat ucha" It seems you've changed this to "Sikha the mat neema man uncha." I'm sorry if you felt hurt by my comments, but truth has to be told. What about the countless sikhs before Guru Gobind Ji's time that were cut-haired (Arora and J a t). Were they not sikh?(sic).'

Here's the sheet I was talking about -

"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh,Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh,Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee" (pg 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages;then whom to call a butcher?

"Baba Hore Khaana Khushi Khuaar.Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay,Man Mey Chaley Vikaar"
(pg 196)
O Baba!All other foods (except the Naam)create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

"Bed Parhey Mukh Mithee Baani Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee"
(pg 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly,but he does not hesitate to kill life.

"Abhakhya KA Kuthha Bakra Khaanaa Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa"
(pg 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the Hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.

"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay,Jhoothhaa Jao Na Bichaare.Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho,Tho Kio Murghi Maarey"
(pg 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false.False is one who gives no thought to their contents.If you consider God is in all,then why you slaughter the chicken (ie, life)?


Acha,that's all for now ...
Tarun

Keeping uncut hair is no big deal. All hindu sadhus for thousands of years have kept uncut hair. The chinese until a hunderd years ago kept long hair. So did many ancient greek and roman cultures.

Hi Taj, please provide me with that reference!

Sunny Singh,is it safe to assume that only some Jatts had/have a (tribal linked-accounts say Scythians kept uncut hair and beards too) custom of maintaining uncut hair,because I have read that 'most' Jatts before converting to Sikhism were monney?

Kidhaan all?

I went to my sikh society meeting yesterday. I spoke to last year's president. He said in no ambiguous terms, that eating meat is wrong, it is 'pappi' despite a loophole in the Guru Granth Sahib where it goes along the lines of "if you can kill the animal yourself,it's OK provided there's nothing else around".
He gave out a photocopied sheet to me and there are about 10 quotes from Guru Granth Sahib saying it is wrong. I don't have it on me at them moment.I put it in my girlfriend's purse...
I'll write it all up later.
Watch this space.

Tarun

Do your grooms have these coconut and dried dates and other dried fruit ganas tied to their upper arms?

Thats it, thats how its done,I have seen that in my village too, just after the groom is ready to go off with the Janj.

wp, yes I am from Amritsar district and we do break clay dishes,more specifically, chappnia(lids) made of mitti. Before the boy(laarha) goes to marry taking a wedding party with him(baraat, janjh) he takes bath and steps on clay dishes(plates or chappnian) and breaks them it is considered a good luck custom.

Even some muslim jatts keep long hair in Pakistan.

Hi WP, very interesting points!!! Please do find the name of the Jat custom of keeping hair. Sikh Jat customs vary from village to village and region to region, implying that in certain areas there was more Hinduism or Islam (and certainly not the orthodox bodies of both respective religions!) There are lots of evidence of fakir, pir, and sufi thought, as well as, the hindu counterparts (i.e. santism and swamism).

About the breaking of plates, I am not sure. My fiance’s family who settled in East Doaba after partition told me they perform that custom. We put “thel” or oil in front of doorways for good luck of the marriage; and I believe this is a “Hindu” custom. My dad hates it when my mom does this for marriages and many times I believe he’s against rites and rituals of any kind!

In Sikh marriages the coconut is a common custom; probably a Hindu custom, since the Sikh marriage is relatively new and many Jats were married “Vedic” style, even up to 60 years ago!

About most “Muslim” customs I personally feel they were forced out by the Singh Sabha reform movement in order to break out any ties with Muslim and Hindus.

More later and I am sorry if this posting is not well organized. Take care,

WOW.. This is a good topic guys!!>. I don't know of this!!>. I have never read anywhere in all the books I have read that a Guru has eaten meat.
Yea, maybe the didnt' eat meat because they were born into hinduism or muslim and thats how they were raised.. not to eat meat.. these are great points!!.. So Confused.. are you still going to continue to eat meat or no?.. I kinda recently stopped eating meat myself, well I only eat chicken..I dont' know why only chicken.. I know it makes no sense....

Sunny Singh and Sarb,

What about the Gurus eating meat ?

Were the first five primarily vegetarian because of their births into hindu families ?

Guru Hargobind ?

Thanks.

Hello Sunny, the long hair that Mirza Jat kept was in fact a Jat custom up till very recently. I can't remember what it was called, but it had a name for that style of hair. My grandfather,may he rest in peace,had such a jath of hair, I think it was called chathay, but I will find out for you. I am only refering to the Muslim Jats customs, I am not aware in detail of Sikh jat customs. Incidently Sunny, do you guys break a dish of clay on the day of a wedding?

Kabir and Nanak Panthis, in general, did not consume flesh due to a couple of reasons: 1)General thought of not harming animals. 2)Most followers were Hindus so were already predisposed to such a diet. 3)Meat and some vegetables have a warming effect on the body and make it difficult to perform Nam-Simran; i.e. Rajsik foods. Langar was a started by Guru Nanak!!!

Back to my earlier posting, please note when the most Jat conversions occurred!! Interestingly, the comments about meat peculiarly correspond with them!

Jats are known for their large consumption of flesh and their like of alcohol and were considered as “Sudras” for these actions according to the Gita!

The Khalsa are known and historically documented for consuming flesh. The outward signs of the Khalsa also point some interesting things out. Note: Mirza Jat, of the love story Mirza Sahiba, kept unshorn hair and carried a talwar!!!! This was prior to the Khalsa! Everyone knows that the cart must come before the horse! No offense intended.

I'm not sure what is wrong or what is right but it is interesting that meat is not allowd to be served in the Gurdwara (langar). Perhaps this is an indication of meating-eating being bad in Sikhism?!

Please note the that consumption of flesh in Sikhism may be most likely attributed to the conversion of the Jats into Sikhi. If a comparison of many physical items of Jat culture and Sikhi is performed, one may realize that we may be putting the cart before the horse!

as it goes - in olden times (before babur came to India), the general trend was vegetarianism. the mughals came and introduced the meat eating. I think that singh might be right - but there is evidence of Guru Nanak and Guru Angad eating meat.

Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh ate meat regularly unlike the other gurus who were generally vegetarian.
I think Guru Angad ate vegetarian food most of the time because it was him and Mata Khivi (his wife) served veggie food in the Gurdwaras - so that everyone could eat - hindus,muslims and sikhs.

Hope that helps

the giani is right.
eat meat.

Sat Sri Akaal to everyone.

Hi.I'm a 22 year old jat-sikh living in California,USA.
Recently,I have become very spiritual and have started reading GGS,growing my hair and learning to read&write punjabi.Before now,I was a meateater.Like,if there wasn't meat on my plate I wouldn't eat it.My mother (who is amritdhari) doesn't eat meat. She says inspite of what the common belief is, sikhs mustn't eat meat. Gyaniji at the Gurdwara says "maas khaana tha fer rajke khaa la" ... "bas, halal nahi hona chaida".The belief is that if you,yourself can kill the animal then it's OK to eat meat.
I,personally,am a bit of animal lover - I have 2 dogs and a python.So,I decided on giving up the meat. However, everywhere I see meat I drool - Togos sandwiches,desi kabab,Carls Jnr,Dennys ...

Recently I attended the International Sikh Youth Federation meeting.There,there was a discussion about meat eating during the Gurus' times. One guy (amritdhari) said all the Gurus were vegetarian except Guru Hargobind who enjoyed hunting and meat eating. One other sikh argued back by saying at a hindu festival,Guru Nanak enraged the hindu devotees by eating a meat offering.
Ultimately,it came down to a historic debate - the sikh that brought the argument up said "the first five Gurus came from hindu families,and found it hard to shake off vaishnava traditions (ie,vegetarianism)" , "whilst Guru Hargobind was born into the sikh fold and was,therefore not held back by Vaishnava traditions,therefore ate meat to his hearts content".

HOW MUCH OF THIS IS TRUE ?

What about Gurus,7,8 and 9,Guru Har Rai,Guru Har Kishan and Guru Teg Bahadur (respectively) ? Did they eat meat ?

Kindly help me out.
Yours truly,
Harkirat Singh.

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa , WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh